>> Today's Issues continues on AFR with your host, Tim Wildmon, president of the American Family Association.
>> Tim Wildmon: Hey, welcome back, everybody, to Today's Issues on American Family Radio. Tim with Wesley and. And, we've got with us now in studio, Steve Paisley Jordal.
>> Steve Jordahl: Good morning, everybody.
>> Tim Wildmon: And raised in Kansas City. So, Ray, Tim and Steve and Wesley and Steve, you. We were talking about. Jimmy Swaggart passed away.
>> Steve Jordahl: Jimmy Swaggart passed away, today. We don't know as of yet the cause of death, although I did remember last week, reading that he was ill.
>> Tim Wildmon: So I'll, tell you the.
>> Steve Jordahl: 90 years. 90, yeah, yeah, 90 years old. So, the interesting career. maybe it's a good thing to. If you want to spend just a minute on this, I'd love to ask Ray, because he, was a man that had a, hugely successful ministry until scandal hit. And, he was caught doing some sexual misconduct and everything, but came back, he quit his church. The church said that he was not, following the discipline.
>> Tim Wildmon: Talking about the denomination.
>> Steve Jordahl: Well, the church too.
>> Tim Wildmon: He was in Assemblies of God.
>> Steve Jordahl: He left that denomination, I believe. I don't know if you remember, Ray, but tell me about what kind of a legacy does a man like that leave in your mind.
>> Tim Wildmon: He preached the gospel for 70 years. That's where I have to begin in my thinking about him. He and I come from different, let's call him.
>> Tim Wildmon: You're Baptist and he was Pentecostal, right?
>> Tim Wildmon: That's right. We come from different parts of the Lord's Vineyard. Right. And so, and sometimes in our, my part of the vineyard, we like to, we like to throw cherries and apples at people from other parts of the vineyard, you know, and, and there are some true differences between the Pentecostals and the Baptist. How do you look at a man's life? who, who. Look, guys, look. He was. You. I mean, this was back in the days of, Jim. Jim.
>> Tim Wildmon: Jim Baker.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right. And Jim, Jimmy Swaggart was, ah, huge. Huge.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right.
>> Tim Wildmon: So he didn't just fall, he fell publicly. They were talking about Jimmy swaggered on Nightline.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right, Right.
>> Tim Wildmon: He became the butt of late night comedian jokes. Okay. How do you come back from that? I'll say this much. His wife stayed with him.
>> Tim Wildmon: his kids stayed with him, his family stayed together. He, he never denied what happened. And he continued to teach and he continued to preach. And I think the highest tribute I would pay to Jimmy Swaggart is, you know, God gave Him a lot of gifts, musical gifts and, gifts as a man on the stage. I know people called him a, ah, showman and so on. Well, he knew there aren't. There aren't very many people who can come out, in front of a crowd of 25,000 people and hold them in the palm of their hand. Very few communicators can do that. Jimmy Swaggart could do that. But even that's not what I want to talk about. I want to say this because I did listen to a number of his sermons. When he preached the gospel, he was clear as a bell. He was absolutely clear that man is a sinner and Jesus is the Savior, and there is no other hope for heaven other. Other than faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And I have no doubt, no doubt that when Jimmy passed over this morning, he was welcomed by multiple thousands and tens of thousands of people who, humanly speaking, owe their conversion to his preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And so, we all. I was thinking about this the other day, guys. James says we all stumble in many ways. Okay? He stumbled big time on the big stage, and the whole world knew about it, but we all stumble in many ways. We'll let the Lord sort out how things are to be handled. But I wish to pay tribute to a man who. To the. Okay. And Tim, this is nothing. He never compromised on what we would call the fundamentals of the faith. He was clear and strong on those to the very end. And, I thank God for the gospel that he preached, because the gospel that he preached is the gospel that's true, and it will save anybody.
>> Tim Wildmon: Amen.
>> Tim Wildmon: Will believe.
>> Steve Jordahl: And as someone who's needed that mercy many times, I know that God is a God of second chances.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah. And third.
>> Steve Jordahl: And. Yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: And fourth.
>> Tim Wildmon: And fourth. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: Thank God.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah. Just to echo or to expound, I guess, some on, what. I agree with everything you said. Right. Very eloquently said. listen, the Bible teaches us clearly that we're to live a consistent Christian life, in every way possible. That's our standard. Right.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right.
>> Tim Wildmon: As Christians, the world out there. I'm talking about unbelievers who have not been saved, who not given their life to the Lord. They have no spirit, they're spiritually blind. Okay. All they're going to do at us Christians who try to live by standard there, when we fail. And Jimmy Swagger did film, as you say very publicly, they're going to mock and they're going to use scorn, and they're Going to point fingers and laugh, at us. Ah, but you know what? that doesn't. Because somebody fails to live out a standard they say they had, they. They strive for, doesn't change the standard. All right? It doesn't change the standard. So just because Jimmy Swagger failed morally doesn't mean the moral standard that Jimmy Swaggart was preaching about isn't still true. Does that make sense?
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yes.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right.
>> Wesley Wildmon: It does.
>> Tim Wildmon: Now, the world out there, again, the unbelievers, they don't understand that, really. They just say, hey, look, you bunch of hypocrites, you don't even live up to what you preach for the work for everybody else. And I would say.
>> Tim Wildmon: I would say, number one, we're all hypocrites. If you believe the Bible, that is. You do things. We're all hypocrites in the sense that we do things and say things and think things that we know we shouldn't. Right. That's the reason we have.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Oh, that's why Paul says in Romans 7, I believe it is. He says that, how does he word it? Right? In. In Romans 7. Is it. Is it that.
>> Tim Wildmon: That which I do. Yeah, that which I would do, I don't do. And the thing I don't want to do, I do. Oh, wretched man that I am.
>> Tim Wildmon: That's Paul.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said that in Roman, Paul.
>> Tim Wildmon: So. So I'm just saying that I'm not diminishing at all the, seriousness when we do fail. Because, of course, there are degrees of failure, when we living up to God's standard, Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, that, you know, that those are the standards that we try to strive to live up. Or, why do we do that? We strive to live up to those standards because we love God, and God, we want to demonstrate our love to him by living in the way he says we should live. So that every day, every day we get up in the morning, that's what we should strive to do. And so I just wanted to say that. I wanted to say, just because we failed sometimes doesn't mean the standard changes. Even though the world will mock and ridicule us Christians when we fail to live up to the standard. Especially somebody like Jimmy Swaggart, who was, as known by millions and in the public eye. but the other thing is, Is, that. Who wants to be. I think it's unfair to define people by the worst moment in their life. Somebody lives to be 70, 80, 90 years old, and now I know there are things that people do that are so heinous and wrong and terrible that they are defined. They are defined by that moment, and that's just the way it is. But I'm. I'm talking about, quote, lesser crimes, so to speak. I'm talking about failure. I, just. I know when Robbie Zacharias passed away, you know, and then the news was, you know, about him, you know, you know, in the massage parlors. And you remember that story.
>> Tim Wildmon: I remember the story.
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. And there was some bad stuff that happened there, I guess, morally speaking. and I thought that's. That's sad and tragic, but it doesn't change what Robby did for all those years in terms of his contributions to the Christian cause. You see what I'm saying?
>> Wesley Wildmon: I do.
>> Tim Wildmon: So I hate to. I hate to say somebody's defined, by the weakest moment in their life, where they fail. Go ahead.
>> Wesley Wildmon: I agree with you wholeheartedly. And to be. To also be fair to the other side and that we would also agree on, too. Not to this, not,
>> Tim Wildmon: Not diminish.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Not to diminish what he did. Because there were consequences to what he did.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right? Yeah.
>> Wesley Wildmon: People quit donating to his ministry.
>> Tim Wildmon: I understand.
>> Wesley Wildmon: People cut off. You know, a lot. A lot of people quit playing his sermons.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right.
>> Wesley Wildmon: The. The newer ones or whatever they were, there. There were natural consequences that came from the decisions that he made. But to your point, we don't know the timeline in which he fell into that. And so we don't want to dismiss the 30, 40 years of his ministry.
>> Tim Wildmon: I know.
>> Wesley Wildmon: I just got a question.
>> Tim Wildmon: Go ahead.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Well, it's going to take us a little bit off topic. It's going to keep us on topic, but different area of this. So where would he fall? Because I've heard of the name Ravi.
>> Tim Wildmon: Or Jimmy Swaggart, so.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Jimmy Swagger. I've heard of the name, but he's not as familiar with me as a Billy Graham.
>> Tim Wildmon: You're in your 30s.
>> Wesley Wildmon: is that what it be? Okay.
>> Tim Wildmon: It's a generational thing.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Okay, so then where would he fall in the same line in American history as it relates to the evangelist of Billy Grah versus Swagger? The reason I'm asking is because what I'm hearing is if he was that good of an orator, then he would be up there in the top five there with Billy Graham. Is that right?
>> Tim Wildmon: Depends on what you're ranking in terms of reaching people.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yes.
>> Tim Wildmon: That's hard to measure. And I'll Let Ray comment. Steve can comment. That's hard to measure. but, our popular Billy Swaggers. Jimmy,
>> Steve Jordahl: Swagger.
>> Tim Wildmon: Excuse me.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Swagger.
>> Tim Wildmon: Thank you all for correcting me. That was one of the worst moments in my broadcast.
>> Steve Jordahl: Be defined by.
>> Tim Wildmon: You'll be defined by.
>> Tim Wildmon: Oh, man. Y' all. listen, Jim, Billy Graham, his, ministry was over a longer period of time.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Okay?
>> Tim Wildmon: It was like. It was like a 50 year crusade ministry, television ministry. Also, Jimmy, Billy Graham never had any,
>> Wesley Wildmon: That's right.
>> Tim Wildmon: Hint of scandal.
>> Wesley Wildmon: No, that's right.
>> Tim Wildmon: Financially or morally.
>> Steve Jordahl: And there were different types of ministry. Billy's was crusades, where you had everybody in person and the cameras caught thousands and thousands of people streaming forward to. Just as I am. Whereas Jimmy Swaggart, was on television. And you don't know how many people found, Christ because of that. It's hard to measure.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah. Ray, any thoughts on that?
>> Tim Wildmon: Two things. Number one, you. You touched on. What I think is the big one, is that Billy Graham stands. Stands in a category by himself for a lot of reasons. He preached to more people in person than anybody in the history of the Christian movement. And yet, this is the thing. I mean, he started preaching when he was 17, 18 years old, back in the 1930s. He died in 2018. So you do the math, okay? That's many, many decades. And at the time of his death and in the years since then, Tim, there's never been a serious. I've never been a serious accusation of any kind against Billy Graham. Morally, spiritually, ethically, financially. His. He would say. He'd be the first to say, I'm a sinner like everybody else. He'd be the very first to say that. But he lived by a high standard and he. I think he deserved all the acclaim he's gotten because nobody's, ever come out and said anything like that about Billy Graham. So all to his credit.
>> Tim Wildmon: Do you know one other thing, an anecdote there. I read this. I think. I think I got this right. He would send Billy Grant. I'm talking about he. Because he was on the road a lot, you know, it. but they would. He would send people into his hotel room in advance to make sure there wasn't a woman in there that somebody was trying to set him up to take a picture of. You know what I'm saying? I remember. Do you remember reading about this?
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: in. About. In about 1940, or maybe. Maybe it's after the early 1950s. But he was in Modesto, California, Modesto agreement. The Modesto covenant. Yeah, that, he and, some other. The guys on his team, which would have been Cliff Barrels at that point, and maybe George. Beverage.
>> Steve Jordahl: Beverage.
>> Tim Wildmon: The three of you know, and others on the team, they. They knew that evangelism had, going back to the days of Elmer Gantry, had been so mocked and ridiculed.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right.
>> Tim Wildmon: they made some covenants and one of them had to do with ethical, the way they would handle money. And one of them gave birth to the very famous Billy Graham rule that, you remember, Mike Pence, talked about that when he was vice president. That's where that goes back to that Modesto covenant, that Billy would not be caught in a motel room alone. And he would send his people in because you never knew somebody might have set up a. Ah, he wouldn't.
>> Steve Jordahl: Be caught anywhere in public. If he was going to meet with a woman, his wife was going to be there.
>> Wesley Wildmon: That's, called accountability. And that is very helpful. Now I'd encourage everybody to read Romans chapter 7. I'll read just a couple verses here, and then I've got a poem that I want to conclude my thoughts on that subject. Not that I wrote, I can assure you. I did not write.
>> Tim Wildmon: We got a sermon here. We got three points in a poem, right?
>> Wesley Wildmon: Hey, that's a good point.
>> Tim Wildmon: Coming up West, Wyoming.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Go ahead. Romans, chapter seven is what I was referring to earlier and Ray was able to quote. It says, for I do not understand my own actions. This is Paul writing, for I do. For I do not do what I want to do, but everything but. But the very thing that I hate. Now, if I do what I want to do, I agree with the law and that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good that dwells in me, that is of my flesh. For I have the desire to do what's right, but not the ability to carry it out. So the idea there is that you have to rely on the Holy Spirit each and every second of each and every day. And the way that I've summed up the Christian walk is through this, ah, little three sentence poem. And it says that two natures beat within my chest. The one is foul, the one is blessed, the one I love, the one I hate, but the one that I feed will dominate. And who said that?
>> Tim Wildmon: That's great.
>> Wesley Wildmon: I can't. I've not been able to find the, person who first.
>> Tim Wildmon: Read it again.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Now the two Natures beat within my chest. The one is foul, the one is blessed, the one I love, the one that I hate, but the one that I feed will dominate. And so that's, for me, that summarizes the Christian walk, because we are born again, but we have not been eradicated from the flesh, and we've not been eradicated from this fallen world. And so there is a constant battle.
>> Tim Wildmon: for us between the spirit and.
>> Wesley Wildmon: The flesh, between the spirit and the flesh. And so relying on the Holy Spirit, following his commandments and having a good, ah, sense, of accountability, which is what Billy Graham was a good example of, for sure. Helps us out. And then also, too, Ray. And you can comment on this. I know we've taken up a lot of time on this, subject, but the reality is that being forgiven and asking for forgiveness is the essence of Christianity. and so obviously we don't want to purposely fail.
>> Tim Wildmon: And Paul says that over and over again. He said, God forbid that I should cheapen grace by living immorally and then expecting God to restore me.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah, Romans 5. Exactly. However, for the Christian, that is the evidence of faith, right? Or being saved.
>> Tim Wildmon: Let me add one or two things. Everything you said, Wesley, eloquent and profound. I want to circle back to Jimmy Swaggart and then make a quick application. This says I'll be done with my thoughts. But I want to say again, we all knew what happened to Jimmy. We all saw it. And, I'm old enough to remember when he made that tearful repentance on, on TV that a lot of people mocked. But he stayed faithful to his wife and to his family, and they were with him to the very end. I appreciated, whatever differences I had theologically, which were real, but whatever those differences were, the Lord can sort all that out for us when we all get to heaven. I appreciated the fact that he believed the Bible. He would not move away from that. He didn't give in to, the winds of modernity that way. He preached the gospel. He was clear. And, whenever. Whenever I see anybody who gets into moral trouble, whether it's Ravi Zacharias, who's closer, closer doctrinally to where I am, whether it's Ravi or Jimmy Swaggart or anybody, always think the same thing. Wherefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. That we should all. I, feel like saying, in the words of the. Of the old spiritual, it's me, it's me, oh, Lord, standing in the need of prayer, not My brother, not my sister, but it's me, oh Lord, standing in the need of prayer. Amen.
>> Tim Wildmon: All right, Steve.
>> Steve Jordahl: All right. Just as we were coming on, to this, half hour, the Senate passed the big beautiful bill.
>> Tim Wildmon: Talk about it being in need of prayer.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah, well, it was a 50, 50 tie and vice president, Pence. A pence. Vice President Vance cast a tie breaking vote. Thom Tillis, Rand Paul and Susan Collins. Republicans voted against the bill. It now goes to the House, begin for reconciliation where they'll try to hammer it out. They say they want to have it on the president's desk by Friday.
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, so the three Republicans who voted no were Collins, Paul and Tillis.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Of course it's not rerunning.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, that's right. He's not going to run for reelection till us from, North Carolina, Rand Paul from Kentucky. You knew he was going to vote.
>> Wesley Wildmon: No because he snow and everything.
>> Tim Wildmon: He's. Anything that sends us more into debt, he's going to vote no on, Grandpa, I'm talking about Susan Collins from Maine. I don't know why she, well, calls Collins.
>> Steve Jordahl: She's, she's gonna vote. She's a rhino. But they did get, Murkowski. Senator Lisa Murkowski from Alaska, who generally votes with Collins. so she.
>> Tim Wildmon: For the bill, Vice President Vance was in attendance and had to be, sitting to cast the tiebreak because it's 50, 50 and in that case the Vice President has to, you know, cast a vote.
>> Steve Jordahl: But it's just as passed.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, exactly. All right, you're listening to today's issues on the American Family Radio Network. Tim, Wesley, Steve and Ray. What, else you got there, Steve?
>> Steve Jordahl: You know the president down in Florida. he's touring the, big beautiful prison, the alligator Alcatraz, by the way. So he put out a statement. he was on, I, have something from him. He gave this to me personally. he told me this. This isn't for the world, but I'm sharing it with you. Now. This is what the president had to say about Alcatraz. Alligator alcatraz. Cut 14.
>> Sean Farage: Welcome to Alligator Alcatraz, where everyone is welcome. You see what, I did there? Chomp, chomp, chomp. We have the greatest gators. Nobody's ever seen gators like this. I get along very well with them, by the way. But we have the greatest and biggest and strongest alligators with the biggest teeth. Their teeth are bigger than Kathi Hochul's teeth. You know, I call her the Buck tooth, Botox Bandit of Buffalo. But we have beautiful gators. I get along very well with these alligators. have been known to handle bloodthirsty reptiles before. Just look at what I did to crooked Hillary Clinton. And we also have big, beautiful snakes. You know, you have the snakes out there in the Everglades. And if you escape, these snakes are going to find you. Alligator. Alcatraz is open and ready for business. It's officially ready to go. Everyone is welcome and no one will be left behind. That much I can tell you. And thank you for your attention to this matter.
>> Tim Wildmon: Before we get sued, let's be clear. That's really not President Trump. That's a parody.
>> Tim Wildmon: Parody. Parody.
>> Steve Jordahl: Folks, that is Sean Farage, who's a conservative, Trump fan, but he puts these things out.
>> Tim Wildmon: What's his name?
>> Steve Jordahl: Sean Farage.
>> Tim Wildmon: F A, B, R A S. He knows that. He knows the alligators very well. Gets along with them very well.
>> Tim Wildmon: Hey, Chick Fil a was voted, the number one fast food restaurant in the America as far as customer service. Is that right about.
>> Wesley Wildmon: By me or just.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, about what? You.
>> Wesley Wildmon: I voted too.
>> Tim Wildmon: You voted yes too.
>> Steve Jordahl: I don't know. It was just customer service. It was overall, overall, overall appeal. overall overall appeal. Chick Fil A followed by all others. Third was Panda. Fourth is Starbucks, Arby's, Panera Bread, Papa John's, Pizza Hut, Culver's and Domino's rounds out the top tens. The last on the list, number 24. Ah, yeah, McDonald's.
>> Tim Wildmon: Really?
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: Well, no way.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah, that's not this one thing. It's not them. It's the ice cream machine. That's what.
>> Tim Wildmon: That's right. It's never working.
>> Steve Jordahl: In and out wasn't in the, the running. It must be part of all others. So they would have won hands down.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, well, McDonald's is building new places, so evidently they're doing something right. but cush, every time I think about Chick Fil A, I must follow with the words Chick Fil A. my pleasure.
>> Wesley Wildmon: That's it. My pleasure.
>> Tim Wildmon: That's right.
>> Tim Wildmon: They do. Chick Fil a la does do a great job of training their employees to handle the public. And their food's excellent too. So two words.
>> Tim Wildmon: Peach milkshake.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That's almost three words.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Should be. It should not be. It should be year round, not seasonal. I, just want to remind. I'll. We'll remind people throughout the week, but this week, this Friday, we will not have a live trivia program. We will have special programming. We'll have a cultural institute on George Washington by Stephen McDow. And we'll have Dr. Ray Pritchard, a Few Good Men. special programming. for Friday.
>> Steve Jordahl: You're gonna review the movie.
>> Tim Wildmon: Ray, the movie may sing the song. I don't know. You gotta tune in to find out.
>> Wesley Wildmon: That's right.
>> Tim Wildmon: We're gonna have a couple of patriotic specials.
>> Wesley Wildmon: There you go.
>> Tim Wildmon: Because our. Our offices will be closed, for July 4th on Friday. Have a great day, everybody. We'll see you tomorrow. Keep listening to American Family Radio.
