Transcript

Alex McFarlane: Should Christians study philosophy? Should Christians preach about philosophy

>> Joseph Parker: Darkness is not an affirmative force. It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.

>> Israel Wayne: This is the, Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.

>> Joseph Parker: It should be uncomfortable for a believer

>> Israel Wayne: to live as a hypocrite, delivering people out of the bondage of mainstream media and the philosophies of this world. God has called you and me to

>> Joseph Parker: be his ambassadors even in this dark moment. Let's not miss our moment.

>> Israel Wayne: And now, the Hamilton Corner.

>> Alex McFarland: Many years ago there was a great Christian thinker named G.K. chesterton. And, he was very influential in the life of CS Lewis, by the way. But GK Chesterton once said this. He said, when Christians cease to believe in the true God, the biblical God, they do not believe in nothing. They believe in anything. we'll unpack that and more. This is the hamilton corner. Alex McFarlane, very honored to be sitting in for Abe Hamilton, pastor, attorney, broadcaster. We've got a great show and I'm so grateful that, Abe, whenever I do sit in in his absence, he kind of allows me to go, you know, where we pray and feel led to go in terms of culture and worldview. And this is one of those shows. We're going to be talking not just about worldview, but about philosophy. What is philosophy? And not only why Christians should study, but we'll ask the question, should, Should Christians study philosophy? and so to help us with that is a colleague and friend, Israel Wayne. Israel, for one thing, thanks for being with us on the program today.

>> Israel Wayne: Hey, it's great to be back with you.

>> Alex McFarland: good to have you back. for those that may be unaware, Your website is ChristianWorldView uh.net largely based on apologetics. give people a little background about yourself and the work that you do. Brother Israel.

>> Israel Wayne: Yeah, I'm an author and conference speaker. I have been doing that for over 30 years and, that's my full time job, is traveling around the country and speaking at Christian conferences and churches and so forth. but I also have worked in the Christian publishing industry and have always had an interest in Christian apologetics and biblical worldview. And so one of the latest projects that I've been working on, really the last two years that's just about ready to launch is, I developed a high school philosophy curriculum, textbook on philosophy for Christian students. And so what it does is it's basically college prep and it helps them to be able to think through the various disciplines of philosophy, but to do so from within a Christian framework. And so that project will be released later this year. It's not out just yet. but one of the things that I found interesting is that I've gotten some pushback from Christians who have said we should study theology because that has to do with God, but we shouldn't study philosophy because that's secular. And especially when we're talking about introducing teenagers or college students to those things that we really don't want to be, as Christians, talking about or engaging in the discipline of philosophy. And so I thought that was a topic that you, and I could talk about because I know you have a lot of thoughts on that. and then we could kind of talk about the various disciplines. there's about seven different branches or disciplines of philosophy and why it's important to think about all of those from a distinctively biblical. Biblical framework.

>> Alex McFarland: indeed. Indeed. Yeah. you know, my mother, rest her soul, very, Godly lady. But, when I was in graduate school, I came home and I said, mom, I'm going to major in philosophy. And my mom quoting, Colossians 2:8, she says, son, the Bible says avoid vain philosophy. And I said, well, we're doing the non vain kind. but no, it's impossible not to do philosophy. I believe, and I want you to comment, but I get it. When people piously say we should study theology but not philosophy, I get it. God's word must be our foundation. And hopefully for everyone listening, it is. But, if you're thinking, if you're reasoning at all, I mean, it's impossible to do that in a vacuum, apart from some sort of worldview that's driving your thought processes and conclusions. Am I right?

>> Israel Wayne: Yeah. So if we break those words down in terms of the etymology, the meaning of the words, theology comes from two different Greek words, Theos and Logos. And so it's the study or the knowledge or discipline of understanding God. And so obviously as Christians, we want to study God. but then philosophy comes from these two words of, Philos and Sophia. And so it's this idea of the love of wisdom. And so as Christians, we're told in the Scripture that we are supposed to love wisdom. Proverbs talks about that. And so the love of wisdom is certainly something that we should be engaged in, as Christians. And we know that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And so we as Christians should be, the ones who really understand philosophy. we're the ones, I think, who can do philosophy correctly. but I know there are concerns that parents have. And certainly we want to be able to address those as well. because especially as we see a lot of the statistics, Pew Research and other groups that talk about Christian students raised in Christian homes who go to college, take these sociology, psychology, philosophy courses and get derailed, and some of them deconstruct and so forth. it's caused a lot of parents to be very concerned, about even talking about or getting engaged in those subjects. And so I think there's a way, as you said, it's inevitable that we are going to do philosophy. We're going to think about the big issues and the big questions of life. But, the question will be, will we do that well or will we do it poorly? And it is my contention that we as Christians need to learn how to do it well.

>> Alex McFarland: indeed, indeed. I rejoice that you've written this text, by the way, when does it release and where may people find it?

>> Israel Wayne: Yeah, it's going to be coming out by MasterBooks.com later in 2026. it's currently going through all the layout and graphic design and all of that. It's in that stage right now being formatted. And so, before the end of the year, MasterBooks.com will be releasing it for high school students.

Alex Geisler became a Christian at age 21

and can I tell a quick story of something of motivated me, in this process?

>> Alex McFarland: Yes, you may.

>> Israel Wayne: So I was working on the project. I'd already seen the m importance of it, but last year I was speaking at a family camp in Wisconsin. I was there with my family, and I got talking with some of the staff who were summer staff working there. There was a young lady who I believe was a junior at the University of Wisconsin in Milwaukee, and she was studying biology. And so University of Wisconsin's a fairly liberal school, has a reputation for not being a bastion of conservative Christian thought. And so as I talked to this young lady, I realized that she was a pretty strong Christian. And I asked her, I said, how have you as a young person been able to keep your faith in college? And she said there were two things, two forces that really helped her. Well, there were several. Number one, her parents. She has some good parents, but then she went to a Christian school. And she had, two teachers in Christian school. One, who was a science teacher who taught her, you know, the biblical view of things like biology, biblical framework versus the, atheistic evolutionary framework. So that was a big one. So she said as a biology major, that was important. and that. And the other one was a High school teacher at her Christian school who developed his own philosophy course. And he couldn't find a textbook. He couldn't find, like, just a turnkey. Here's a high school course on philosophy. So he sort of made his own. And she said that those two courses of biology and philosophy, she thinks probably would have derailed her, had she not had such great prep in high school to know how to think about those things as a Christian. And she told me that in her freshman year, one of the professors literally asked the class, are you a Christian? Raise your hand. It was kind of one of those, like out of the. The movie kind of scenarios. You know, raise your hand if you're a Christian. And so she was able to kind of make a note. And there was about a dozen other students in the class that raised their hand, said that they were Christians. And she said now of the students that have kind of followed through in her class, she said, none of them are professing Christians anymore. They've all bail on Christianity because they've heard these new ideas, and they have been derailed thinking, oh, well, my parents don't know about these things, and my pastor doesn't know about these things, and we have this new knowledge that they don't have access to. But she said, I heard nothing new in college that I hadn't already heard in high school and that I hadn't been prepped on. And I think this is why it's so important, the kind of work that you do, Alex, and that I do. And I know Abe Hamilton, you know, we all have a passion for this to, you know, help our young people to really learn to think biblically and be prepared not to shelter them from the ideas, but to help them know how to think about it.

>> Alex McFarland: indeed, indeed. And, you know, I give God the glory, where, my journey has gone, Israel. But, I was in the middle of a degree when I became a Christian at age 21. And I mean, this was in the. In the late 80s. And, like, I was surrounded. I had one or two Christian friends at, University of North Carolina at Greensboro, uncg. But all around were, you know, atheists and, you know, neo pagans and, I mean, just all sorts of lost people. And so I went to a Christian bookstore. I'd never, to my knowledge, been to a Christian bookstore before, but I went and just in the providence of God, I stumbled into books by Josh McDowell and then Norm Geisler, and for those that don't know, and maybe Israel, and I In the context of this show, we're going to give you guys some reading assignments hopefully. But, Norm Geisler, G E I S L E R. he became a great friend and mentor, but he was one. In 1975, he wrote a book called Christian Philosophy. And it really, it was a game changer for me as I read that, for one thing, I began to realize that there is, within Christendom, there is this rich, rich history of some of the most brilliant thinkers of all time, like Augustine and Aquinas, and in the modern era, more modern, people like Jonathan Edwards, one of the early, presidents of, I believe it was Princeton University. And then of course, people like C.S. lewis and G.K. chesterton. And, in the modern era, not only Dr. Geisler, but people like J.P. moreland, adept Biola, William Laine Craig. Here's my point, folks. Far from being this blind faith, Christianity, at her best has produced some of the most renowned thinkers in world history. And I do believe, like Jon Wesley said, the founder of the Methodist Church, Wesley said, and I quote, the local congregation deserves the highest scholarship the church has to offer. And I do think. I'm with you, Israel. I think we should teach people how to think. We should teach philosophy, obviously philosophy grounded, in and affirming of God's word. But we need to help these kids be prepped, preemptively equipped so that, you know, when they go to college or if they encounter, you know, false worldviews, they're not just really blindsided by that. I think a lot of the kids that have, disconverted and deconstructed their faith, they come on, statements they don't have an answer to, and it really kind of turns, turns their mind upside down. Doesn't.

>> Israel Wayne: Does. And I think sometimes the way that we react really is a game changer too, as to how they process it. Because I know of some parents and even church leaders who, rather than saying, it's great that you have these questions, I may not personally know the answer to all of these questions, but let's look into it. Let's dig in there. Because there are Christian thinkers who have provided answers to all of these deep questions. And let's explore it together. Let's find out, how do we think about these things? As a Christian, I think that's a good way to approach it. I think when parents or church leaders say, well, you know what, you really just shouldn't be thinking about that. You just need to, basically just trust, just have faith. And this kind of idea of we just turn our intellect off and, we just, you know, emote and we just feel and we just believe or we just jump off of a cliff. intellectually, that just doesn't work for a lot of young people. And so it's not that we have to know everything or have all the answers, but we certainly need to be able to help them walk through that process of finding the right answers. And I think that was the thing for me as a young person. I was raised in a Christian environment, but in my later teen years, I started to ask, is this sustainable, or am I just simply believing things I've been told to believe from my pastors and from my parents and so forth? And so I kind of went on a quest to find out, are there answers and is Christianity defensible?

>> Alex McFarland: Hold that thought.

Hamilton Corner features Israel Wayne, author of new Christian high school textbook on philosophy

We've got to take a brief break. Our guest, Israel Wayne, author of a new new Christian high school textbook on philosophy. Hey. We are going to take questions 888, 589, 8840. Later on in the show, as we talk about the subject of philosophy, should Christians study philosophy? And what would that entail? Stay tuned. American Family Radio is back. After this,

>> Joseph Parker: A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker. Psalm 1. Beginning at verse one, it tells us these words, blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, or stands in the way of sinners, or sits in the seat of scoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. The most powerful weapon in the universe is the word of God, which is also known as the sword of the spirit. As a believer spends time reading and meditating on the Word of God, he or she is fortifying their mind, body, body and spirit against the attacks of the kingdom of darkness. Time, reading and meditating on God's word prepares us to step out onto the battlefield of life, to walk in victory. We as believers are wise to make it a high priority to read and meditate on the Word of God every single day of our lives.

>> Caroline: Shining light into the dark.

>> Israel Wayne: This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.

Alex McFarland: Israel Wayne is an influential Christian thinker

>> Alex McFarland: Welcome back. Alex McFarland here. So honored that you're listening and so, pleased to have with us Israel Wayne. He's an author, he's a speaker. His website is ChristianWorldView.net and, I am remiss because in the previous segment I was mentioning, you know, some influential Christian thinkers. And I neglected to mention, maybe the most influential Christian philosopher post, C.S. lewis. And, cue that name up and tell us about this person and his legacy and influence, if you would.

Israel: I got introduced to Christian apologetics through Josh McDowell

Israel.

>> Israel Wayne: Yeah, absolutely. Well, first, before I get to him, I, like you, kind of got introduced to Christian apologetics through Josh McDowell. He was the entry point for me and then found this whole other, you know, wonderful realm of thinkers. One of the first thinkers that I found that deeply impacted and influenced my life was Dr. Francis Schaefer, who was a Christian missionary in Switzerland and founded a ministry over there called Labrie. And he felt called to speak to the intellectuals of the day. But. But a lot of them were just college students, who were reading philosophy and studying art, and they were trying to figure out how to navigate through this world of, you know, existentialism and all these ideas that were being thrown at them in the university. He wanted to provide a framework of Christian answers. And so many of Dr. Schaeffer's books had a very, foundational impact on me, as well, as you mentioned, Dr. Geisler, his book on Christian ethics, I think is pretty unparalleled. And so many of his works, Yeah, I've actually just recently found out that, there's an archive online of Dr. Geisler's audios, and, you can subscribe to it. And so I've subscribed and listening through his lectures that he did for many years, at the seminary. And it's just amazing that we still have some of those that are available. he's gone on to be with the Lord now. But, it's great that we have books from Dr. Schaeffer and C.S. lewis and Norman Geisler and so many others, some of which you mentioned, but great thinkers, and some of them, you know, disagree on some theological things. You know, there's a spectrum. You have some of the more, staunchly reformed guys like Dr. Gordon Clark and R.C. sproul and some of those guys that I've read all of them. And I just enjoy, you know, getting to learn from the different viewpoints and perspectives. And I think there can be value in, you know, not just camping out in one's, own neighborhood, but listening a little bit to people, across the. The Christian spectrum as they've definitely, all brought and contributed, you know, significant thought to, this. This aspect of philosophy. James Sire would be another one that would come to mind.

>> Alex McFarland: Oh, I. I gotta say this about James Sire. One of the Books that was just so revelatory in my young Christian life was called the Universe Next Door. And he's written a number of other books as well. But here was the premise of that book. Folks like, let's say at your house you're Christians and you go to church and you say grace before you eat a meal. And just 25ft away, the house next door, maybe it's just a few feet away, but it could be a whole nother universe. They might be atheists and they might be Satanist or Buddhist or Muslims or whatever. And the definition of worldview in Sire's book, I remember it to this day, he said, a worldview is a set of assumptions which may be true, maybe partially true, might be entirely false, which you hold consistently or inconsistently, consciously or subconsciously about the basic makeup of the world. And I mean there have been a plethora of other books on worldview written. But I think James Sire was one of the thinkers in, in the 1980s that introduced the. Much. But I'm, glad you brought his name up to somebody else that I would love for people to familiarize themselves with is Paul Copan. Do you know Paul Copan? He's written quite a number of books.

>> Israel Wayne: Oh, for sure. He's written some really great books about relativism as well are some of the ones that, I've read from him about this idea that there is an objective truth that's kind of your truth versus, my truth. And he's refuted a lot of those ideas, ah, quite handily in some of his books.

>> Alex McFarland: indeed, indeed. I've got a quote and by the way, we will take questions, in the third segment.

Israel Wayne: All arguments against Christian doctrine can be rationally defended

If you've got a, a worldview or a philosophy related question for our guest, Israel Wayne or myself, we'd love to hear from you. And maybe if you're not a Christian, maybe you think, hey, this, this faith thing and belief in Jesus is, is false. let's talk. Well, let's talk. The number is going to be 888-589-8840. But I've got a quote for you, Israel, and I'd love your response. Thomas Aquinas, 800 years ago, he lived 1225 to 1274. And honestly, one, of the, reasons that the west did not fall to Islam in the 1200s was in large measure due to the apologetics work of Aquinas and others. But he said this, he said every possible argument against the doctrines of the Christian Faith are the result of conclusions incorrectly derived, and therefore there exists the possibility that they be answered. Let me say that again. And what he's saying is he says all the arguments against the Christian faith have a rational mistake in them somewhere. Again, Aquinas said all of the arguments against the doctrines of the Christian faith are the result of conclusions incorrectly derived, and therefore there exists the possibility that they be answered. I love that quote Israel and comment, if you would. In other words, there is an answer. The atheist says there's no such thing as God. No. Christian apologetics says no, God does exist, and we can persuasively defend this skepticism. says Jesus couldn't possibly have risen from the dead. No, he did rise from the dead, and we can defend the historicity of that. I would think it would be a great encouragement to Christians in the 21st century to know, as Aquinas said 800 years ago, the faith, the faith claims of our worldview can be rationally defended, can't they, Israel?

>> Israel Wayne: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that Aquinas did was he was able to bring, things like Aristotelian logic into the realm of theology. And so again, there had been a little bit of a split, you know, where theologians just studied the Bible, but they didn't really see the importance of things like, logic. And so one of the things that Aristotle did was he said that logic, while Aristotle formulated it, it doesn't come from Aristotle, it comes from God. And so one of the things that Christians have done, is recognize the need to kind of claim ownership, of these disciplines, right? To say that reason, that logic exists is because it comes from the mind of a God who is logical. And that the atheistic worldview that we all came from time and, and matter and chance, that does not explain the existence of systematic structures like logic. It can't give us a framework for, for why logical thinking exists or why it works. And so it's interesting that in the Enlightenment, the thinkers wanted to embrace the Aristotelian logic part, of what was salvaged by Aquinas in the Middle Ages. But, they wanted to push off revelation, the revelation of God. And that's something that as Christians, we hold both because we don't see them to be intention, or in conflict with each other. we recognize that reason and rationality and logic, correctly and properly applied, work in tandem with the revelation of God and that it is the most reasonable rational, system. So as Christians, we don't want to reject rationality and reason or logic. We embrace all of those things. but we also don't want to do, like the Enlightenment thinkers, where we throw revelation out and say we can come to know truth simply by these agencies alone, apart from the revelation of God.

One of the things that you address in your speaking and writing is epistemology

>> Alex McFarland: one of the things that you address in your speaking and writing is epistemology. Israel, what is epistemology?

>> Israel Wayne: Well, again, it comes from these two Greek words, episteme and logos, which. Episteme is knowledge, and then logos is the study or discipline of a thing. So this is the study or discipline of knowledge. And it seeks to answer the question of how do we know what we know? Or how do we know what is true?

>> Israel Wayne: And so as Christians, we should not abandon epistemology to the heathens and say they're the only ones who should be having the conversation about how we know it is true. And so as Christians, that's something that should be at the forefront of everything that we're teaching and doing is what is the basis of knowledge and what is the basis of truth. And you really, you can't do theology and you can't do evangelism, unless you have that framework properly understood. How do you know what is true? And so back to what we talked about with relativism. So much of the world has embraced that idea that there's no objective standard for truth. It's just my opinion versus your opinion. That's an epistemological framework, but it's a faulty one. or others say, well, we know what's true just simply from our own reason and rationality. We don't need God, we don't need his revelation. Again, faulty starting point, faulty premise. And so back to Aquinas's, thesis. these things are properly understood when we do theology and we do philosophy according to the biblical framework.

>> Alex McFarland: absolutely. And you know, folks, as we're talking about how we know what we know, sure, we put our faith in Jesus pistuo. That's the Greek word m. It means trust. But it's not a blind faith. It's not a, faith, rooted in nothing. It's a faith based on historical things that really did happen and really can be known.

Fideism is just faith in faith alone and a fideistic Christianity

Let's talk about, the epistemology of many, many, Christians in America. Okay, Fideism. Fide, the Latin word for faith, faith alone. I've had many a pastor say to me, and I love the church, I've been a pastor, I love the church. But, every now and then, Israel, I'll get booked to speak in a city and, you know, maybe somebody hears me on the radio and they bring us to their city. And it's almost like, sometimes the pastors, they tolerate it, but they're not thrilled about it. And, I've had more than a few pastors say, you know, I tell the people, just have faith. Well, I get it, I get it. But fidism is just faith in faith alone and a fideistic Christianity, folks. it will melt away, in front of a, PhD at a secular university that has incredible influence over the minds of young people. yes, it is faith not works. It is trust in Jesus. But I think we have to all ages, but especially young people, show them. Well, it's like second Peter 1:16. We have not followed cleverly devised fables when we made known unto you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's a faith rooted in fact, isn't it?

>> Israel Wayne: Absolutely. And I love the title of Dr. Francis Shaver's book, the God who Is There.

>> Alex McFarland: Amen.

>> Israel Wayne: Right. Because we don't just have faith in some abstract concept of a God. We have faith in the God who has revealed himself in space and time and history. We don't just have faith in some cosmic Jesus who we love and admire in our hearts. we have faith in the historic Son of God who actually became human and lived among us and was actually crucified and died and physically bodily rose again from the dead. And that's what Jon says, that that's what we have experienced and that which we have seen and that we have felt with our hands and that which we've experienced empirically, that's what we reveal to you. That's what Jon talked about in First Jon. So we're actually talking about a Christianity that works in the real world. And so as Christians, we don't have to escape from reason, which is another great, philosophy book, that. I think that was a Shaffer title. Yeah, but we don't have to escape from reason. We can, trust in the God who really is there. And then also his follow up to that book was he is there and he's not silent. M. Right. So God has not only exists, but he has revealed Himself to us in the Scripture. And so God is noble. And you know that. I want to touch on this too real quickly that, God's revealed Himself in two ways, general revelation and special revelation. So the Bible is God's special revelation, but he's also revealed Himself to us through the things he's made, Romans 1

>> Alex McFarland: says, and Psalm 19 as well in

>> Israel Wayne: science and in mathematics and in logic and music theory and all these things that he's made, he's revealed, the fact that he is a God of order and consistency. And so we have empirical evidence that supports the existence of God. and so these, these two, expressions of his revelation, go together. They're not enemies, but in fact they work in tandem together.

>> Alex McFarland: They really do. And by the way folks, if you're just tuning in, Alex McFarland here along with our guest author and lecturer Israel Wayne. His website is ChristianWorldView.net you mentioned music theory. one of our great friends is Lauren Greene of Fox News. And a, lot of people may not know this, but she is a classically trained pianist. and she wrote a book called Lighthouse Faith. And by the way, she loves apologetics. She's a devout Christian. Lorne Green wrote what I believe is the best explanation of how music theory and the intervals and the tones and the notes of the scale prove a theistic worldview. and it's fantastic if you're a musically inclined person. And I think the objectivity of music theory is one of the arguments for a theistic universe. I think math. I think one of the great untapped or partially untapped apologetics topics is pure mathematics. Because I mean we would not, you mentioned we wouldn't have logic apart from an orderly logical God. We would not have mathematics in a non theistic universe. But while we're naming authors and books, here's when you. Do you remember the Dust of the Death by OS Guinness? Did you ever see that book, Israel?

>> Israel Wayne: I'm, familiar with OS Guinness. I know he worked with Francis Schaefer and others, but I don't think I've read that particular one.

>> Alex McFarland: yeah, and it's basically what the Western world is going to be like if we don't return to a Christian theistic worldview. And so folks, we're talking with Israel Wayne. We've got a break coming up and we're going to answer the phone. So if you have a question we, welcome. That is 8885-8988-4088-8589-8840.

Hamilton Corner examines current events through the reliable lens of Bible prophecy

Israel Wayne, our guest on, this edition of the Hamilton Corner. We're back after this brief break. Stay tuned.

>> Israel Wayne: If we lose this cultural war, we're

>> Alex McFarland: going to have a hedonistic humanistic society, discover the story of the culture warrior Don Wildmon and how he went head

>> Israel Wayne: to head with Hollywood playboy, the homosexual

>> Alex McFarland: agenda and the Disney empire. The movement Don started paved the way for Christians to boldly stand for truth and righteousness in a hostile culture.

>> Israel Wayne: Watch Culture Warrior today for free.

>> Alex McFarland: Visit culturewarrior Movie.

>> Israel Wayne: I'm Tim Moore from Christ in Prophecy Radio. With all the uncertainty in the world, it's good to know God's promises never change. That's why each week we examine current events through the reliable lens of Bible prophecy. Join me for Christ in Prophecy radio. Saturdays at 1:00pm Central, 2:00pm Eastern and Sundays at 11:00am Central, 12:00pm Eastern. Find out what's really going on. Saturdays at 1:00pm Central, 2:00pm Eastern and Sundays at 11:00am Central, 12:00pm Eastern on American Family Radio. The Hamilton quarter podcast and one minute commentaries are available at afr.net back to the Hamilton corner on American Family Radio.

Israel Wayne: We need more Christian thinkers these days, don't we

>> Alex McFarland: Welcome back to the program. Alex McFarland here. Hey, by the way, our, Revive Us tour is coming to Elkin, North Carolina, June 7 through 10. the western part of North Carolina. Then June 20, we're doing our speaker series again this summer. Last year we had Charlie Kirk and Dinesh d'. Souza, Many great Christian speakers. well, this summer, June 20th, conversations that matter. And, if you would please go to my own website, which is Alex McFarland.com later in the summer we'll have Eric Metaxas. Well, a lot of great content because, like Israel Wayne, we desire to see the church equipped to thrive, for the gospel in the 21st century. And, you know, we're going to go to calls here in a second. By the way, the number is 888-589-8840. Israel, I think you would love this quote. You know one. I love G.K. chesterton. And in 1908, G.K. chesterton, wrote, as much as we need to win the loss to Christianity, more and more we need to win the Christians to Christianity. And I think that's, that's more true than ever here in the 21st century. Would you agree?

>> Israel Wayne: Chesterton had so many of those pithy quotes. Right? Just as one liners. one of my favorites from Chesterton was when he said that Christianity, has not been found, lacking. it has been found difficult and left untried.

>> Alex McFarland: Yeah, very true, very true.

>> Israel Wayne: well, we need more Christian thinkers these days, don't we?

>> Alex McFarland: We really do. but, we're. And I appreciate you so much and, we'll give your website again here in a second.

Israel Wayne: One of the great tasks of an apologist is defending Bible

But we're going to go to Texas right now. And, our first caller is Lowry from Texas. Thanks for holding. Welcome, sir.

>> Caroline: Thank you very much. I came across a YouTube, surfing YouTube Vaddy Bauckham presentation.

>> Caroline: And I put his quote on the back of my business card, but I sure would like it evaluated. A reliable collection of historical documents written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses reporting supernatural events, fulfilling specific prophecies, and claiming that their writings are divine rather than of human origin. End quote.

>> Alex McFarland: Okay. speaking of, the whole Bible or the four Gospels?

>> Caroline: I, think the whole Bible.

>> Alex McFarland: Yeah.

>> Caroline: We have conversations going on in the Old Testament that man, someone else is saying something else and it's got recorded. This is what was happening. I think it's the whole Bible.

>> Alex McFarland: Yeah. Well, I, think that's a good quote. Voddie Baukham was a, great Christian communicator. He recently passed away, and he really wasn't that old, but I, interviewed him when I was working for Focus on the Family. We had him on the radio. yeah, I think that's a pretty good quote because the 40 authors that wrote the 66 canonical biblical books, it's God's word and they were getting God's revelation. But, yes, they were, you know, eyewitnesses, and they experienced it themselves. but what say you, Israel Wayne?

>> Israel Wayne: yeah, well, Vodi was a good friend of mine. He, and I spoke at a lot of conferences together and I got to know Voddie quite well. I think his first book, if I remember correctly, it's called the Ever Loving Truth. Yeah. And it was a book on why Christianity is defensible and why we can trust the Bible. And so Vodi has a very interesting story. He was actually raised by a single parent mother who was a Buddhist. So he didn't come from a Christian background. he was raised in Los Angeles and really should not by all accounts have become a Christian. And yet the grace of God invaded his life. And, he saw the truth of the gospel and became a great defender, of the Christian faith. And so, thankfully, again, he's home with the Lord now. But, we have his books and a lot of his, messages on video. And so Vod is a great resource for people who want to learn more about Christian apologetics. I highly recommend, his books and his resources, which are still with us, even though he's not.

>> Alex McFarland: Indeed, indeed. And do you know one of the, like in the Spirit of that quote, one of the great tasks of the apologist is to defend the Bible, which is very, very, very defensible. Because here's the thing folks, before somebody will, you know, seriously consider the content that Jesus rose and we believe in Jesus and that's what the Bible says. But, if they come to the table, assuming that the bi. If their presupposition is that the Bible is false, not true, they're not going to give much serious consideration to the content. So not only do we proclaim, but we have to explain and defend as well. we're going to go to Arkansas. Mark in Arkansas. Welcome.

>> Caroline: Hello. expounding on what you just presented the problem there. I've talked to, no two Baptist preachers. I'm accepted Christ when I was 30 and have. Have attended the Baptist church since then. But found out one Baptist preacher I talked to, he didn't. Didn't believe in the six days of creation. in another one we, I was happy because we're gonna spend time in Genesis. We spent two and a half days out of creation. Now if you want to talk about miracles, there's nothing more fantastic than the six days of creation. And on top of that, concerning the kids, you know, drifting out. When you go into a classroom and a professor teaches, tells you that you're a fool to believe in six days of creation and you haven't had good formal, training by a person that believes to point out the facts way more than what we have in the Bible, that God gave us, you're going to lose them. You're just going to lose those kids later on.

>> Alex McFarland: Yeah, very, very true, very true. that's why, Look, I believe in education. I've spent, you know, the majority of my adult life, either in class or teaching classes. I believe in education. But, Israel, when. When young people especially are unprepared for the philosophical battles of the university, I mean, it can be very debilitating. And that's, I think, the unpreparedness of our youth, is why so many, If you go to bookstores, ah, like Barnes and Noble, there are shelves now about deconstructing one's faith. I spent a couple of hours, I was on the road. I was in, Wichita, Kansas a month ago and I went to this, Barnes and Noble. I like Barnes and Noble. They carry my books. But, I looked at the deconversion section and none of the arguments were new. I didn't see anything I hadn't heard before, but it was all either Darwinian evolution or the problem of pain and suffering or professed Christians that fell away. And so, we've got to prepare these people of all ages, but especially young people, because we're in a battle of worldviews. What, do you say about this, Israel?

>> Israel Wayne: Yeah, very much so. And in fact, one of the disciplines of philosophy is metaphysics. And one of the topics that's addressed in there is cosmology, cosmogony, which is the study of origins and how did everything come to be? And these are philosophical questions. I think one thing that's really important for us to teach our young people is that these, beliefs that are being promoted within the atheistic framework are really exactly that. They're philosophical ideas. They're really not scientific ideas. They're philosophical ones. And so we need to not, grant them their argument, which is, oh, we're dealing in the realm of science. they're really dealing in the realm of belief. And so as Christians, we shouldn't be afraid as though, oh, they have information that we don't have access to. No, actually, they have a bias, they have an assumption, they have presuppositions that they bring to their study of these things. And they basically often admit we can't allow a divine foot in the door. I mean, there are actually atheistic biologists, who have said that we believe in atheistic evolutionary, science not because, the science demands it, but simply because we can't allow a divine foot in the door. And so we as Christians need to prepare our young people, with the philosophy of this and show them that given the right starting points and the right assumptions, there's nothing within the scientific argumentation that's contradictory to what the Scripture teaches us.

>> Alex McFarland: indeed.

Unpack, if you would, the word metaphysics. Metaphysics is really that whole realm of ideas that's outside the physical world

Unpack, if you would, the word metaphysics.

>> Israel Wayne: Yeah, so, meta is a really difficult prefix, and it kind of means, above or beyond or over. And so it is that which really relates to that which is outside of the physical realm or the physical universe. So empiricism is the idea that we know everything through what we can touch and taste and see and experience with our physical senses. Metaphysics is really that whole realm of ideas that's outside of the physical world. And so it encompasses ideas like, ontology, which is the nature of being, the per. Of ideas of purpose and meaning and destiny. it encompasses a lot of those ideas that really are the big issues of life. Right how did we get here? What is our purpose? What is the meaning of life? Where are we all going? What's, our final destiny? Those are all metaphysical questions. And so, you know, they're answered by theology. Right? We have good answers within theology for the metaphysical questions. And so we don't want to abandon metaphysics to the heathens and just let them be the only ones that talk about that. We want to come in as Christians and say there are answers that actually explain all of metaphysics, within the Bible itself.

>> Alex McFarland: indeed. And you know what? Just this, conversation reminds me that, you know, the lexicon of words and good solid meanings, we need, our parishioners to be conversant on these things and talk about these things. So, because like, even, like with the word philosophy or epistemology or metaphysics or even ethics or, you know, aesthetics, if kids, the only definition they've heard is that which comes from a secular classroom, they may assume that's the only definition there is. And so there's, the Christian worldview, that we need to, make sure they're, they're up to speed on.

Israel Wayne: Christian worldview is a set of lenses by which we see reality

Talk about, if you would, the bias though, because I, I think that people probably assume that maybe the professor or the, the YouTuber or, you know, whomever, the newscaster is just blissfully neutral. But, but really nobody is neutral, are they? Everybody has their presuppositions and their biases.

>> Israel Wayne: Yeah, for sure. And I think that's one of the things that we as Christians fall into the trap of granting them, that fallacious argument. So they say you're biased, you trust in religion, you trust in faith. We're neutral. We're just looking at evidence, we're just looking at, at science, we're just looking at math. And you know, you're trying to incorporate your religion into this. and yet really we all have these starting points. And so theism, the belief in God or non theism, a atheism, no theism, those are conflicting worldviews. And if you start with a premise that there is no God and you interpret according to that framework, then you're going to reach certain conclusions. and when you are open to, the, the fact that God exists, then you have a different framework through which you interpret the evidence. So it's not as though we don't have a filter or a bias. We all do. and then we receive that information and filter that through our grid, our set of assumptions or presuppositions. And, that really is what that worldview is. It's a set of lenses by which we understand and see and interpret reality. we believe the only correct set of lenses in the universe, is that which has been given to us by, by God, through the Holy Scriptures, and that. That is the lens through which we understand and interpret all things rightly and correctly, and that we see things the way God sees them. we, we can interpret and understand truth. And so as Christians, that's the message that we want to get out there. and the earlier that we start doing this with our young people, the better. We can't just wait until they're college bound. Dr. Barnas, as a young person's worldview is essentially locked down by age 12, with another window from 13 to 21, and that we need to be getting them even before age 12, with simplified explanations of these things. But we as adults need to understand the ideas and be able to communicate them even to younger children, indeed,

>> Alex McFarland: indeed, before we run out of time. And first of all, I want to thank you for being with us today and thank you for what you're doing to equip, and inspire. But, give us a little bit of a homework lesson. how could we begin to read and get up to speed on Christian, specifically Christian philosophy?

>> Israel Wayne: Yeah, Well, I would like to invite people again, you mentioned it before, but my website, ChristianWorldView.net, it's kind of a yellow pages for Christian worldview and apologetics resources. And so you can go there and kind of branch off to see how does the Christian faith address these different disciplines of philosophy, of logic, of, environmentalism, of sociology, of science, or whatever it is. And there are great ministries and authors and speakers who have spoken to these kinds of things. And so it's a great way to kind of branch out and to get to, other resources. And then if somebody has specific questions.

>> Alex McFarland: Brother, forgive me. We're almost out of time. Almost out of time. Israel Wayne, thanks. Bobby Rosa, Jeff McIntosh, thanks for engineering. Blessings to you all. The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.