Hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. Today we have a great message for you and one that I think every church needs to hear. Today we are talking about something very important, but something that is often overlooked, a ministry challenge. How can churches of every size, of every type create inclusive spaces for people with disabilities? With an estimated one in five households caring for a child with a disability, many families miss out on the fellowship and growth that the church offers simply because accommodations aren't in place.
Sandra Peoples is a disability ministry consultant for the Southern Baptist of Texas Convention
Joining us today to talk about this very issue is Sandra Peoples. She is a disability ministry consultant for the Southern Baptist of Texas Convention and she's author of a book that is coming out tomorrow. Tomorrow is the official release date. She's here with us today, which is super exciting. The book is called Accessible Church A Gospel Centered Vision for Including People with Disabilities and Their Families. Now, this is such, such an thing to talk about because she brings personal caregiving experience and professional expertise to guide churches on practical ways to remove barriers and extend God's love to all members, regardless of ability. Now, I'm a pediatric nurse practitioner. I have worked with families who have children with disabilities and those children eventually become adults. And I know very well the challenges that they have. Many of those are special space, many of those are logistical. But walking into a church environment, if you're not prepared, say you imagine, I want you to imagine for just a minute that somebody is coming into your church this coming Sunday and they have a wheelchair. Can they get in? And if they can't, what would be the pathway that they would have to navigate? And is it accessible? Because if it isn't, that means somebody's going to be scrambling in the moment to try to figure out, well, we can go over this sidewalk and come in this door and let's go find the custodian who's got these keys. We'll open this and you can come through here. It gives a very loud message. We weren't expecting you. And when you're expecting families and when you have a plan in place to be able to accommodate whatever needs they may have, it gives the opposite message. We are so glad you're here. We were hoping you would come. We've had everything ready for you. This is my perspective and having worked in children, children's ministry nearly my entire adult life and a lot of that before, too. So let's dive in and talk about this. Whether you are a church member, whether you are a church volunteer, whether you are on church staff, if you are in any way affiliated with the church, you have a role to play in welcoming someone with a disability. So listen in as we talk to Sandra. Sandra, it's so good to have you back. Thank you so much for joining us.
>> Sandra Peoples: Oh, I'm so excited to get to chat with you today.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Me too. And congratulations, because I'm looking and it's. It shows. I see that your book, Accessible Church A Gospel Centered Vision for Including People with Disabilities and their Families is the number one new release in children's Christian ministry that tells me people need this information and are seeking this information. So congratulations on that. You have been on the show before and shared a lot about your own personal journey. So let's talk about this specific resource and your journey because it is both professional and personal, which is often the case, talk to us about what first inspired you to pursue this calling and how those personal and professional experiences have shaped the work that you're doing.
>> Sandra Peoples: Okay. I grew up with a sister with down syndrome. And so we grew up in a small town in Oklahoma through the 80s and 90s and we attended church just like the generations of my family had attended that same church before. And so that church did a really great job of including my sister, which meant our entire family got to come. And then I went to college, I went to seminary, I married a pastor. We were serving at a church in Pennsylvania. And then our son was diagnosed with autism in 2010. And I looked around and realized that we didn't have special needs families in our church. So what I had taken for granted as a sibling growing up wasn't available to us as a family with a son with autism. And so we talked to the church and they did a disability ministry, a special needs ministry. They met James's needs, and then they were able to meet the needs of other families that had children with disabilities that came. And so I saw what it looked like, even for this church of, 125, 150 people to say, we are going to meet the needs of the kids who come. We're going to do our best. God had already put people in the church, an occupational therapist, a special education teacher. They were already there and willing to help. And so personally, that meant so much to me. Then on the professional side, I realized, man, if our church wasn't prepared, even with my experiences growing up with a sister with down syndrome, how many other churches probably weren't prepared for that either? And so over the last few years since James's diagnosis, 15 years, really, we have, been helping churches, start or strengthen their disability ministries. we live in Texas now, and the church that my husband pastors, when we interviewed here, we said, hey, do you have a disability ministry? And they said, no. We said, okay, well, if you hire us, you're going to have to have some kind of ministry so that the pastor's wife and the pastor's son don't have to stay home week after week. And they said, okay, great. So we've been at this church for eight years, and they've done a great job growing with us and meeting James's needs. And so I. I take what I've learned through my personal experiences as a sibling, as a mom, as a ministry leader, and then teach that to other churches and give them ways that they can welcome families like mine.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Sandra, that's so inspiring. And I love what you're painting, is a picture of the body of Christ, how God has gifted so many people in so many different ways so that you can be prepared. And, you know, I was talking in the introduction about that family perspective, about walking in, and there are so many fears and worries that parents or families will have, because when they have a child with a disability, it's so. I can't even begin to think about the long list of questions that you would have, like, what are they going to think? Do they know how to respond to this? Are they skilled? Are they compassionate? Will they be understanding? Will you know, they have the equipment that's needed? Are they going to come and get me? Are they not going to come and get me? Walk us through what that feels like as a family, to walk into a new place and just give us that kind of perspective. You know, when I'm doing well, baby checks and m. The babies start to crawl. I tell the parents, I'm like, you need to get down on your hands and knees and look at their level and see what the dangers are, what the threats are, what the opportunities are. Can you do that for us in a proverbial sense, with families with disability and try to help us to be in their shoes for just a minute for what it might be like?
>> Sandra Peoples: Yeah, it's hugely vulnerable. Right? You're. You're coming in to a situation where there's so many things you can't plan for, so many experiences. You may have a Lot of us would rather just stay home in an environment that we can control on some level. But we know that it's God's heart for us to be a part of a church family. And so we think, okay, we're going to risk it. We're going to try. We're going to get everybody up on a Sunday morning, and we're going to get to church. And it's a huge risk. In fact, there was a study done that said if you have a child with autism, you're 84% less likely to attend church than a typical family. And so that's a lot of families staying home on a Sunday morning. But, you know, autism specifically is an invisible disability. And so when we walk in on a Sunday morning, we're not walking in, and people are adjusting their expectations right away, like they did when I walked into church with my sister Sybil with Down syndrome, that people could see they could kind of adjust their expectations. But autism is invisible. And so we walk in, and it doesn't take long for people to realize, oh, he's not behaving in the same way other kids his age are. He might be covering his ears because the noise is too loud, or he might be, walking on his toes. He might, need something in his hands to listen, like a fidget. So all of these things are signs that. That, James has autism and sensory processing disorder and a lot of other things. And so we're walking in, being so vulnerable to say, will this church see us? Will they care for us? Will they be able to meet our needs? And so many families I talk to are met with negative experiences. They're met with either people who just don't see the signs and they don't understand and they don't show compassion, or a lot of them are asked to leave if their child makes noises or can't sit still, or half the family, stays in the service, and the other half goes and walks the hall or sits in the lobby. We see that a lot. A lot of times the whole family can't attend together. And so I just think special needs families are fighting so many battles. We fight them, with insurance, we fight them with school districts, we fight them sometimes with our medical care. And church can feel like one more battle. And honestly, it doesn't always feel worth it to fight that battle on a Sunday morning.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That is really eye opening. And I'm so glad that you brought that up because, you know, at the beginning I talked about a wheelchair. But you're right, because especially so Many children have autism spectrum disorder. They have some other neurocognitive behavioral diagnoses that may not be visible to other people. And it is. It's so hard. And I just feel for the families who are there, because, I mean, what you said, that statistic I had not heard before. Families with autism are 84% less likely to go to church. And then I think they. These. I. I see these families feeling guilty because they're not going, or feeling guilty because they're going and they're not sure. You know, like, what is the win here? And I'm also glad, Sandra, that you talked about churches of all sizes, because I think there's nobody out there listening who works at a church who thinks, oh, yeah, we're definitely not doing that. That's dumb. You know, nobody's. Nobody's thinking like that. But I do think that they think, can we. Are we capable? Do we have the budget? Do we have the resources? I wouldn't even know where to begin to start. And is that likely to happen? So let's talk to that person who's just kind of thinking, okay, we don't have anything. I'm not yet sure we should.
One in five families in the US has a member with a disability
Why should they? No matter what church size they have?
>> Sandra Peoples: Well, I think you mentioned an important statistic in your introduction. One in five families. One in five families in the US Has a member with a disability. I talked to our school district as I was researching for the book, and I said, what percentage of kids in our school district are under IEPs or 504 plans? And it's 24%, 24. That's. That's a huge number. And so you think if those kids need some kind of modifications at school to be able to learn and participate, they're going to need some kind of modifications at church to be able to learn and participate. And so I think when you, when you see this as a mission field, right? When you. When you really think about how many families there are in your community who either feel unable to come or are, actually have had experiences that have communicated that they shouldn't be there or that they're not welcome in these churches, I just. I feel like your heart has to move with compassion to meet their needs. And so often we meet those needs first in children's ministry, because that's the most likely place that a new family is going to come. They're going to have a child with a disability. So there's some simple things we can do in children's ministry to help kids feel more welcome. We Even put language on our intake form. So we, we kind of have a question that says, does your child have an allergy, a learning disability, a special need, or a behavioral diagnosis? That way we're kind of putting everything together because we hope that a family is going to communicate honestly about whatever that need is. They're more likely to say yes if we're kind of expecting them to say yes about something. That's why we put allergies along with, other diagnosis, like a special needs diagnosis. And then once we know, we can ask some follow up questions so that we're prepared to keep that child safe. That's our most important goal. We want that child to be safe, but we also want that child to feel like they are welcome and celebrated and that we want them there. And so that's usually when I talk to parents, that's the two goals that they have for their kids. We want our kids to be safe and we want, our kids to feel loved. We don't want it to be like, oh, here comes that one kid. And we always struggle with him sitting still in the lesson because there's simple things we can do to come alongside that kid and make the environment more comfortable for him.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I have so many more questions, Sandra, but that's so good because yes, we want them to be safe physically, but we also want them to be safe emotionally. And I know, I've worked with the association of Child Life Professionals. Shout out to all the child life people out there who really are doing a lot of great work about emotional safety and having kids feel emotionally safe when they come into medical environments. But how much more so in church environments. So we are going to give you a lot more practical guidance. When we come back, more with some Sandra Peoples, author of Accessible Church A Gospel Centered Vision for including people with disabilities and their Families. We'll see you on the other side of this break.
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Sandra Peoples helps equip churches to create inclusive spaces for families with disabilities
Today I want to speak to families out there who are caring for a loved one, for a family member who has a disability. Listen, we see you, we salute you, we pray for you. I know that that work is hard and I know that there is great joy as well. And there are different challenges that you face. And sometimes it can feel very isolating, like no one understands. But today we have a guest who is walking this road and is using her own personal experience now to equip her professional view to help equip churches to create inclusive spaces for families with disability. This isn't just a nice idea. It's not just, oh, something that maybe you should do. This is a biblical mandate in some senses and a ministry necessity. But for many churches, you have concerns. I get it about limited space, limited budget, volunteer training, and it makes reaching children and families with disabilities feel downright impossible sometimes. Sandra Peoples is here to help you. She is a seasoned disability ministry consultant. She's an adjunct professor with a lot of knowledge and joins us today to share how churches can adapt classrooms and teaching methods and safety policies to serve families facing cognitive, physical, mental health challenges. All kinds of things. And whether your church is large or small, her insights will empower you to make your ministry a place where everyone, especially those with special needs, can Flourish. And her book releases officially tomorrow. Accessible Church A Gospel Centered Vision for Including People with Disabilities and their Family. Number one new release in children's Christian ministry tells me there is a desire to do something, but we need to be equipped. And Sandra's book and her ministry equips. We're talking about all kinds of things, just as she just talked about down syndrome, autism, dyslexia, anxiety, adhd, trauma related issues, plus the things that would probably come to mind. More crutches, wheelchairs, some of those more external things that are easier to see. And Sandra, before we get into some of the practical guidance, I want to talk about the core biblical texts and the theological truths that guide us.
A theology of disability is organizing the passages and verses from Scripture about disability
That's actually the first chapter of your book, Laying the foundation and laying out a theology of, disability. I don't think this is a common conversation that people are having around the dinner table, but what is it and why should we care?
>> Sandra Peoples: Well, a theology of disability is really just kind of organizing the passages and the verses from Scripture that talk about the topic of disability. And what is interesting is that you may not realize that it's. It's from Genesis to Revelation, we're seeing examples of disability or, instructions on how to treat people with disability. So that starts in Genesis 2 where it talks about how we're all made in the image of God. And that includes people with disabilities. And so that means that we care for them. We, we see that they have the potential to have a relationship with God because they're created in his image. And part of that means they can have a relationship with him and have a relationship with others. So we care about the discipleship of people with disabilities, the evangelism of people with disabilities. We see in Exodus 4 where Moses, God is calling Moses to go speak before Pharaoh, and Moses says, oh, I can't do that. I'm slow of speech. And we think maybe he had a speech impediment or maybe there was some kind of physical reason he didn't feel like he could speak clearly. And God answers him very clearly and says, I know who you are. I made you on purpose. And you can still fulfill the purposes I have for you, even with this, what you see as a limitation. And so we just kind of see that throughout Scripture in all kinds of different ways. We see it with David and Mehbasheth. We see it in, in the gospels with how Jesus treats people with disabilities. One of my favorite passages, and I think it really speaks to church leaders. It's actually the last few days of Jesus's life and he has come into Jerusalem. He knows it's time, for his crucifixion, for his death. And it's when he enters the temple and he turns over the, the money changers and the people who are selling animals. So that is actually the space around the temple where unclean people or people with disabilities would have had access to. And so you can imagine, if you can picture it in your mind, that all those tables are set up, the animals are being sold in the only space that was created around the temple for people with disabilities. So, the book of Matthew tells us that when he turns over those tables, the very next verse after that, which I think sometimes we often overlook, says that the blind and the lame came to him. So he turned over those tables, and that gave access to people with disabilities to be able to come closer to him and come closer to that temple and all of the rhythms around the temple that existed in that time. And so we can't, heal the way Jesus healed in the New Testament, but we can eliminate the barriers that keep people from disabilities from having access to Jesus and to our churches and the rhythms around our church life.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That is really convicting. Sandra, when you think about it like that, and you think about, you know, going to the ultimate example of how did Jesus interact with people with disabilities? And you've given us some great examples. I hadn't put that together about the story you just told about Jesus entering the temple. You know, we picture him turning, over tables with the whip and all of those kinds of things. But in the light of that, it's one of the great examples of how rich God's word is and how there's always something new to learn and how God just sees that and cares for everyone. But there's so many more examples. You know, thinking about the friends who lowered their friend through the roof who wanted healing, or the woman who was bleeding, or, you know, just people who are demon possessed. I mean, all of these kinds of stories of healing and people who, who came to Jesus for healing, that to me is really convicting and thinking, this is why. This is our, why. And looking at that. And so. But I think that, again, we get back to that practical barrier, people feeling like, yes, I want to be like that. I want people to feel welcome. But listen, I have a hard enough time getting volunteers as it is. I am, you know, scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to get people to show up, to be consistent, to be on time. And, and, you know, I'm Fighting the budget and we don't have money for this. And I'm trying to train about all of these pressing needs, you know, that happen. We're trying to learn about trauma and all the other things, health things that just seem like everything is so chaotic. What would you say to that person who just is feeling overwhelmed at the idea of even opening this door to consider it?
>> Sandra Peoples: Yeah, I think, I mean, you're naming that the biggest fear that people have. Right. And explaining it so well. And I think we can get overwhelmed by all the what ifs. Right. And there's no way we can prepare for all the possible people that could come. And man, if everybody heard that we had this ministry, we would be, be overrun on a Sunday. And all those fears. And I just think you don't have to have an answer for every possible person that could come to your church. You just have to welcome and serve the ones who do. And they're going to show up one at a time and they're going to guide you through how to get to know their child, because parents are experts in supporting their child. And so you ask some helpful questions. How does this child communicate? What are some triggers that might upset this child? What are this child's strengths? What does or she love to do? what do they love to talk about? And so you get to know each individual child and then you can put the right support around him or her. Oftentimes, especially when we're talking about invisible disabilities like autism or anxiety or adhd, some of the support that we put in place is really pretty simple. So if a child has sensitivity, to noise, we can give them noise reducing headphones. And those are available everywhere now because you could find them in a hunting section or you can get them really easily. And so they just wear these noise reducing headphones. It kind of turns down the noise that's in the background for them and they're able to concentrate on one thing. Another tool that we use is a visual timer. And so it's a timer and it has all the times around, like, it counts down for 60 minutes, but when you set it, it turns the, the space red and then it shows you the disappearance of that time. So kids with autism or anxiety or adhd, they may not understand what it means when you say, okay, in five minutes we're going to clean up. But if you set that timer and show them, that helps decrease that anxiety, helps them feel more comfortable in that space. We also do visual schedules. We show them, okay, first we're going to, play and then we're going to sit at the table and have our lesson and then we're going to have our snack and then we're going to go on the playground. And what's great about something like a visual schedule is it helps our kids with disabilities. It helps decrease that anxiety, but it really helps all the kids. There's no kid that doesn't benefit from a, routine that they can predict that brings them comfort, it helps them feel more secure in that space. And so we put a schedule up that every kid can see that helps everybody. So those are a few things, especially if you're talking about a kid who is able to be in your typical children's ministry spaces with just some modifications. We call that like inclusive ministry. So we at our church we train buddies and so they can be adults or teenagers and they have some special training that helps them come in and support the kids with disabilities. They carry little backpacks that have buddy bag on them and they have sensory tools like the noise reducing headphones, like fidgets in case a kid needs something in their hands. So they're prepared to see a, challenge that a kid might face and then be able to meet that challenge. Then there's other disabilities that they may need a different environment. My son James, he has level three autism, so that's on the profound end of the spectrum. And so we could put a lot of support in place in a typical environment, but he still wouldn't really feel comfortable there. And so some churches create their own specialized environment or a specialized classroom. We call it like a sensory room or it's a self contained room if you're familiar with special education language. So a self contained room has more sensory, tools for them. Like in ours we have a ball pit and we have a swing and we have these things that they can play with. But also the curriculum is modified so it's easier for them to understand. So if it's a child with an intellectual disability like down syndrome, or like my son who has autism and an intellectual disability, the lesson is also suited so that they can learn and be discipled as well.
Sometimes that can be overlooked in church is younger kids around kids with disabilities
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, my goodness, so much to unpack there. But I want to start with this. I love that you talked about having buddies because this is one unutilized resource. Sometimes that can be overlooked in church is younger kids who are, who are, you know, maybe a little older, even those peer aged, but equipping them to respond to a kid with a disability. I know my kids have served as buddies during vacation Bible school where they're partnered one on one. It helps with safety, helps with comfort, and they're taught about their needs. And you know, Sandra, I just started actually thinking about my own daughter. I have a daughter who had an immune deficiency when she was younger. And she experienced a lot of medical trauma, a lot of painful procedures, and really traumatic things associated with that. And it's not something people, people would typically think of a disability much as what you, you were talking about earlier, things that are not visible. But there was one particular Sunday where they were using a cleaner that smelled like the alcohol that was used to, you know, clean skin for, for procedures. And it was triggering. And she had some post traumatic, you know, stress disorder symptoms. And thinking about just such a wide spectrum of kids who need that kind of one on one. And so in thinking about, you know, my daughter when she was anxious, the other kids, they thought they, they were scared because they could see her having this physical reaction. But they didn't know what to do. They didn't know what to say. But when we just sat them down and explained it to them and said, hey, this is what anxiety looks like, here's what this child needs. They need you to give them a little physical space, but just to be encouraging you, this is when you get an adult man. Sandra, those kids were on a mission. They felt empowered. They knew exactly what they needed to do to support their peer, to support their friend, and they had no problem doing it. Because I feel like kids, in some ways, they don't have the social barriers that we put up as adults. And if you just explain it to them, they're much more likely to say, oh, okay, all right, I understand where we are. And they just step right in to help. I think that that's a really beautiful thing. Anything else you want to add to that?
>> Sandra Peoples: Yeah, no, I love that. I think this, this generation coming up, I think they're much more comfortable because education models have changed and so the kids with disabilities aren't hidden away like they were when I was growing up. And so it's much more visible to them. They're used to kids coming in and out of the classroom who may need additional help with reading or, a kid wearing noise reducing headphones helps, just like a kid wearing glasses helps. And so it's much easier to explain to younger kids. And it's so important for them to be around kids with disabilities so that they can learn compassion and care and friendship and be able to see themselves as helpers, but realize there's help that they need at times, too. And they need their friends to help them. And so it's kind of the, these relationships that can start at really young ages. And then we see them drawn into professions like the medical field or special education or therapy ways. And when you hear adults now, you hear their stories, it's normally a relationship they had when they were young that triggered that in them and helped them grow in compassion.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you know, I think the other thing too is that when we see kids with disabilities so often, your first thought is about their limitations, about the liabilities that surround that, about the. What accommodations are going to have to be made. But seeing them as a whole person, seeing the gifts that they bring. I know you talked about that before about your own son, James, about the joy that he brings to your life, about the ways that he shifts your perspective and helps you to see things in a way that you would not have seen before. I think these are all going back to your theology, Sandra. So these are all gospel centric, life affirming messages that say we are created in God's image. And maybe they don't look exactly like you on the outside. Maybe they don't act exactly like you do or like you think that they should. But looking at the hope that is in all of that. Well, I have a lot more questions when we come back. We'll talk about some programs, places, and, and policies and give you a little more practical guidance for how we can help families with disabilities. And I also want to talk to Sandra about some changes that she's seen. How have attitudes been shifting and what is she seeing? And we'll talk, we'll give some encouragement to families who really want to attend church but haven't really found the right fit. We'll have some words of advice for you on the other side of this break. We'll be back with Sandra Peoples. See you in just a minute.
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>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Know you're able and I know you can save through the fire with your mighty hand. But even if you don't, my heart welcome back, friends. That is, Even If by MercyMe and I don't know what you're facing today, and I you may or may not have prayed for God to help you in your situation. And it is so incredible to me to think about getting to a place of saying, even if you don't answer my prayer in the way that I want you to answer it, my hope is in you alone. And that is a timeless truth for all families. And the families we're talking about today are those families with disabilities. And the church in particular is called to be a family in and of itself, where every member belongs. But for families with disability, the path to belonging can be really challenging.
Sandra Peoples is a disability ministry expert and author of new book
So we're talking today to Sandra Peoples She's the author of a new book that's coming out tomorrow called Accessible Church A Gospel Centered Vision for Including People with Disabilities and Their Families. She is a disability ministry expert. She has experienced this in her own life. Her sister was born with down syndrome. Her son has severe autism. And professionally, she has equipped hundreds of churches to welcome children and adults with diagnoses ranging from autism to down syndrome to anxiety and trauma. And we are just getting so much great information today. Sandra, thank you so much for the way that you've challenged us. And we've been talking to people who are in churches who think, yeah, my heart is there, I'd love to, but I'm just not sure about the practical supports. And one of the things you were talking about before the break is that it's a gradual process, like maybe you don't have everything there, but I think there's some value in having humility and saying, you know what, we're not ready today, but we want to be. And look, leaning into that concept of the parents are the experts. I know that as a nurse, if the parent tells me, run this, this feeding drip at exactly this precise milliliters per minute at, you know, this exact angle, or they will throw up. Believe me, I am going to do exactly what they say because they're doing that every day. And I think the invitation to a partnership would go a really, really long way.
Sometimes you have to review your policies to accommodate children with disabilities
And so just any other practical tips that you have as we, as we start to wrap up our time together?
>> Sandra Peoples: Yeah, I think sometimes you have to review your policies, some of the policies that you have. And so let's say that one of your policies is that a child will move. This is in your preschool program. So if they're moving from this classroom to this classroom, once they're potty trained, well, a child with disabilities may not potty train at the same rate that a typical child would. And so you may need to review some policies, and so just kind of holding those lightly and saying, what's the most loving and caring thing we can do here? Even if we have to think differently about the way that we've done things or create, spaces or methods or different ways of doing it so we meet these needs. And part of that is we talked about the vulnerability on the part of the parents, but the vulnerability of the church leaders really comes through here to say, as you said, we may not, as church leaders, understand everything, but we're going to be vulnerable and let you know our limitations, ask those questions, and be willing to adjust some of the processes or policies that we have in order to include more kids.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, how have you seen this conversation changing? Because you are a church consultant, you've worked with many, many churches, and what are you seeing as. As a trend? Are we getting better? Are we moving away from this? What do you see as the common problems and what does it look like from your seat and, and helping all of the churches that you're helping?
>> Sandra Peoples: I'll tell you, I have never been more excited and optimistic about inclusion and accessibility than I am right now, I think. And I kind of liken it to revival, really. Right. It's not just about churches having the resources that they need. It's about heart changes in pastors and leaders and them seeing this as a mission field. And so the trend kind of used to be that it looked more like babysitting, that we would just, okay, we're going to have kids with disabilities. We're going to put them in this room. We're just going to keep them happy for the time. And we're going to. We're going to let the parents and the siblings be discipled and, and worship and be part of the church family. But we're going to keep the kids or teens or, adults with disabilities in this separate space and just keep them happy. And we're really seeing now a shift from that kind of babysitting model to true discipleship. And so curriculum designers like Lifeway and like other places, are creating curriculum for classes that have people with disabilities. Even in children's ministry curriculum, often you can flip to the back and it says, here's how to modify this lesson for a child with special needs. And so it's such an encouraging time to say people are realizing the opportunity for discipleship here and they're helping volunteer teachers. Right. Who are in our children's Ministries who may not be teaching full time and keeping up with all of the latest trends and models, but our curriculum designers are helping us do that and, and helping us be really experts in m. Helping these kids realize that they can be Christ followers and they can grow in Christ likeness. And so that shift to discipleship has just been so encouraging to me and to see that really kind of take off is it gives me all kinds of optimism about the future.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you know, that's something we don't hear too often is, oh, I'm optimistic about the future. It feels like in every other arena all we hear is doom, gloom. No, it's bad. No, it's going to get worse. No, it's, the end is near. You know, it just feels so apocalyptic almost. And it is encouraging, Sandra, to hear that. And I think you're so right to look at it from this shift from a babysitting model and the phrase that you said, let's just keep them happy. I don't know what it was about that, but that kind of sent chills through me just thinking, yeah, that's what we do. And that's what we do when we're well intentioned but maybe ill equipped. And like, we just, we want to keep them safe. We want to just keep the status quo. But this to me is what it means to be pro life and looking across the lifespan. And I think about the verse from John I have come that you may have life and have it more, abundantly. It doesn't say, except for people with disabilities, we're just going to try to keep them happy and keep everything just the status quo. They have an abundant life to live too. And I think that is really encouraging to look at that shift. And when you look at families who are wanting to go to church, but as you said, and it breaks my heart to say it, but I affirm that I have heard this too and seen this, that families with disabilities can be hurt by churches and hurt by their experiences and have negative experiences or they can just have so much fear that they think, oh, I don't know if we can go. What encouragement would you give those families who want to but just, just haven't found that place that's the right fit.
>> Sandra Peoples: Yeah, I have a couple pieces of encouragement. I think one thing that we find in disability ministry, if you look at a church that has a strong disability ministry and you say, how did this ministry get started? They can point to one family. This ministry started because this family kept showing up. Right? So they did the hard thing. They were patient with church leadership. They walked them through what it looked like to care for their family so that that church could care for other families. And so sometimes I think there are things that, because I grew up with a sister with down syndrome, I kind of have this, like decades long perspective on this. And I think there's battles that my mom had to fight so that my generation of special needs moms didn't have to fight it in the same way. And I have that same calling as a special needs mom. There's, there's fights that I need to fight so that the next generation doesn't have to. And for me, that church is the best battle I can fight the, that has the highest reward, I think, for investing my time and attention into. And so, I mean, I would just encourage a family, if you can be patient, if, if you, if your kiddo is safe, then keep showing up at that church and keep helping them realize what it looks like to love a family like yours. And then I also, I think we can look to the book of Acts, chapter six, and it talks about how there was a section of people that were getting overlooked, and it was the Hellenistic Jewish widows. And so they were passing out food and they kept getting overlooked. And those women came and said, m, you're not meeting our needs. Our needs are not getting met. And so the apostles came together and they essentially started deacons. They created the office of deacon, what we know now as servants for the church. they weren't neglecting the Hellenistic Jewish widows on purpose. They were just so busy with the work of the ministry that it wasn't on their radar. And so they needed advocates to come between them. And that's what the deacons became to say, okay, we will meet the practical needs. We will take the steps that need to be taken. And so I encourage families to say, pray for an advocate. If it feels too hard for you to be the one who has to keep going to the children's minister or keep going to the pastor to say, hey, our needs aren't being met, our needs aren't being met, then pray for God to bring somebody else into your life that you can tell them what your needs are and they can go and speak on your behalf. And that way it helps you protect a little bit of that vulnerability. In some ways, if you've been hurt, it also gives another family the opportunity to get to know your family, become friends with you guys, and then they can advocate on your behalf. And so continuing to show up, pray for an advocate. Those are Two really big steps that I think families like mine can take so that the system is set up to better support them when they show up on a Sunday morning.
Sandra Peoples has a chapter in her book about whole family inclusion
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That is super inspiring. And you're talking about the family. You keep saying family, family. And you actually have a chapter in your book about whole family inclusion. You talk specifically about strengthening marriages and supporting siblings. And we, ah, had talked to Kristin Faith Evans, who talked, about the impact of having a child with a severe disability, the impact on her marriage. And it is not easy. And then for me, you know, in pediatrics, I often see the siblings who, just because of the practical, the practice, practical nature of the needs can be overwhelming. Sometimes they just get forgotten. What do you give us a preview of what kind of encouragement you give for strengthening marriages and supporting siblings and looking at this family as a family unit?
>> Sandra Peoples: Yeah, that's great. I love that you had her on. I think she's such a great encourager. Her book is so helpful. a lot of that comes down to practical help. And so one thing that my church does, we offer respite night. And so that's one night a quarter where, special needs families can drop their kids, and that's their kids with disabilities and their typical kids off, kind of a babysitting event. But sometimes it can be hard as a disability family to find a babysitter. So we host those respite events. And so it's a fun space. We do other events in the community, like a family, sensory friendly family movie. And so a lot of families like mine cannot go to the movies as a family. And so we give them this opportunity to come in and the family can come to the movie together. We turn down the lights and turn up the lights and turn down the noise a little bit so it's more comfortable for our kids with sensory sensitivities. We just kind of think, what is hard for a special needs family and how can we make it easier? One thing that we do, you know, a lot of churches have like a photo booth on Mother's Day or on Christmas Eve. Well, it can be hard as a disability family to wait in line to get your picture taken in the lobby of the church where it feels like everybody's looking, looking, and so we can open it up maybe the night before and just have somebody there taking, invite the disability special needs families in for a certain time, say, hey, we'll take your picture the night before so you don't have to do this when it feels like everybody's looking at you. And so you just kind of think about those pain points and you say, how can the church make a difference for this family to kind of alleviate the stress or alleviate the pain? And, and how can we come alongside them and show them how much we care for them? You know, we talk about how we're the hands and feet of Jesus and so we have to put our faith into action. And special needs families, there's just so many opportunities to come alongside them and show practical love and care so that they can focus on all of the things that go along with, the kind of often chaos at their house. and so the little things that feel so big to us like a respite night, a sensory friendly movie, family photo sessions, all of those opportunities can help us feel more like other families and really help us just feel seen and known and cared for by our church family.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You're so right. And saying that some of those things seem so little. But to a family who has that pain point, as you said, who has that need, it is everything in such a way to demonstrate in a tangible way the love of God that he has for those families. And so I hope that if you're listening that you will be convicted to think, what could we do in our church to be more accessible for families with disabilities? You can start by getting Sandra's book, Sandra Peoples Accessible Church, a Gospel centered vision for including people with disabilities and their families. We've had lots of other shows that we've talked about this topic. So many things to think about, but it's just about taking a step in the right direction. And just as Sandra described, there are people that God has uniquely equipped within your congregation. Maybe you are blessed enough that you have an occupational therapist, or you have another medical professional, or you have a special ed teacher, or you have, more importantly, families with lived experience who have walked this path, who know very well how to equip your church. They can be great consultants. I pray that whether if you have a family with a disability, if you are praying over starting a ministry for those families, I pray wherever you are, whoever you are, whatever you're doing, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and that he would be gracious to you. And I thank you so much for listening today and for your heart in this direction. so share this resource with someone you know, with someone who works in a church or someone who works with kids. You never know what might happen as a result of that. Hey, I'll see you right back here tomorrow.
>> Jeff Chamblee: the views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
