Transcript

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Jenna Ellis: Because of listeners like you, PreBorn has helped to rescue over 67,000 babies. Your $28 to sponsor one ultrasound doubled a baby's chance at life. Your tax deductible gift saves lives. Please join us in this mission. To donate, go to preborn.com afr Jenna.

 : Ellis in the morning on American Family Radio.

Jenna Ellis: I love talking about the things of God because of truth and the biblical worldview, the U.S. constitution obligates our government preserve and protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our Creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you. And God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time.

 : This is Jenna Ellis in the morning.

David Frum: Democrats and the left are hypocritical on police use of force

Jenna Ellis: Good morning.

Jenna Ellis: It is Friday, January 9, and a lot of headlines in this, first week back, in January, which have been Trump invading Venezuela, and capturing Maduro, and then of course, the Minnesota Somali daycare fraud. And then, as we saw on Wednesday, a woman who used her van and her vehicle as a weapon and attempted to run over an ICE agent who, of course then shot back and used deadly force. And unfortunately she was killed in that instance. But then the, the outcome of that and the fallout was that the Democrats, of course, while, they have been railing against, violence against police officers, and they held a candlelight Vigil on the 5th anniversary of January 6th, literally the next day then, were suggesting that police officers didn't have a right to, use force to combat violence. And so when we look at all of these different instances of, Democrats and the left who are using whatever the narrative is and whatever the story is, to simply go after their preferred outcome, it proves the rule that I've said for a long time that if leftists didn't have any double standards, they wouldn't have any standards at all. And conservatives need to be better than that, and especially conservative Christians, because we genuinely have a view of government, a view of law and policy that is based in a biblical worldview framework that says that authority, all authority, ultimately comes from God our Creator. He is the one that endows us with our rights. And the sole purpose of civil government is to preserve and protect those rights. And so the rule of law, when it comes to justice, when it comes to policy, you know, all of those things are to, to promote ultimately truth. And everyone should live by the same standards because the standard of truth doesn't change. The person of truth, Jesus Christ, is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But in the midst of all of these headlines, it's very easy to forget that and to rush to fall into these different camps and to not call out the left when they have a, such a hypocritical posture. I mean even we, were talking yesterday about immigration and how the Somalians who have come into Minnesota and basically taken it over, they have turned a, a, historically red state into a blue state. And if that was different, if, if the Somalis were coming into a state and changing it from blue to red, then the Democrats would be out there, the number one advocates for saying that a, that border rules are pro democracy, that, you know, if you're for immigration, you're, you know, anti democracy, this is unconstitutional, you know, whatever. So it's never about the actual issue for them. It's never about the actual policy. It's always about the outcome. And it always leads back to Democrats win and they want power. And unfortunately, some on the right, historically, and we would call them the establishment Republicans, they have fallen into this trap as well, where the only outcome they prefer is power. And this is why I think that the gop, while it's poised to lose the midterms, is actually an outcome that the Republican establishment wants. It wants Trump to be impeached again, to be a total distraction and to end his next term in disarray and even discouragement so that the establishment can take over and they can again be part of the UNI Party. And the Democrats and Republicans who all need each other will then, end up back to where we started pre Trump. And when we're looking at all of this, I just kind of wanted to take a sort of 30,000 foot perspective and say this is not the proper role of government. This is not a biblical worldview whatsoever. When we are looking at law and policy, whether it relates to immigration, use of force by police officers, intervention by our country in foreign affairs like Venezuela, I mean, all of these things. There is a biblical worldview perspective that is in alignment with God's truth that we always have to focus on.

Alex McFarland is the co host of Exploring the Word

So I want to welcome in Alex McFarland, who is a wonderful apologist for the things of truth, for the biblical worldview. I love having him on the program for these types of conversations. And he's also, the co host of Exploring the Word right here on American Family Radio Network. And Alex, with kind of, you know, that, that longer, sort of rant of an intro, I think it's really valuable to sometimes take a step back from the headlines and say, okay, Wait, where is truth in the midst of this And. Good morning.

Alex McFarland: Well, good morning. And Jenna, thank you so much for having me on. That was a fantastic opening monologue. I was just sitting here learning and wishing, it could go on for a couple of hours. it's great. But you know, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. who obviously the, you know, the Moses of the civil rights movement. in 1963 he wrote a book that won a Pulitzer Prize. And it was called why We Can't Wait. And it basically was his, you know, dissertation on the civil rights movement. And that book famously contains Letter from a Birmingham Jail. But here's the thing that Dr. King very accurately pointed out was that, America's government was based on objective moral truth. Now, Jefferson called it self evident truth and George Washington called it natural law. But Dr. King says this a just government. And just laws are laws that square up with the righteous character of God. God's nature is holiness and righteousness. And the validity of human law is measured by the degree to which human law measures up with divine law and the character of God. And that's why Jefferson wrote in the Declaration that all are endowed or given, imparted with, endowed by their creator, capital C, God, Creator, certain inalienable rights, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. And Jenna, part, of the reason that our nation is really kind of in a spiral is because we are selectively legislating sometimes based on self evident truth and God's law, very often based on the whim of culture, what's popular, what's electable. And there was a day when we could count on the Republicans to be the party of principle and conviction. Timeless truth. it doesn't surprise much of anybody when the Democrats do whatever will grab power for them. Any promise, any, you know, fraud, it doesn't matter. I mean, get elected at any cost. I mean that's been the Democrats position since the 19th century. But, there was a day when the Republican Party was the party of principle. And the fact you mentioned that they are poised to lose in the midterms. You know, it's been said that the Republicans can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. it's because, at least in part because it's not principles and timeless truth, but it's partial principle, partial expediency, partial see which way the wind blows and which way might be popular. And until we get back to principle unapologetic constitutionalism, I think the Republican successes will only be a Mixed bag.

Jenna Ellis: M. I think that's so well said, Alex. And you know, if there's one criticism, that I, that I have of Trump overall, it's that he has that populist sort of mentality of determining what is popular and what will win rather than necessarily always just what is right and what is truthful. And that's the contrast between populism and conservatism overall is that you're not run by principles. You're run by whatever your base happens to prefer at the moment. And we saw this, I think the best example is, the reason that Trump wanted to overturn Roe versus Wade was so it would no longer be a political issue for Republicans, not necessarily the conviction that abortion is murder of the unborn. Because now he's currently willing to negotiate, negotiate, deals to use the government money to fund, to fund abortions. He's willing to suggest that, you know, maybe a 16 or 12 week sort of timeline is more reasonable, rather than taking the principled stand on abortion. And so we've seen this in a number of areas, but I think that one is kind of the highlight that most Christians at least could, could resonate with. And this is why in 2026, I think, what Ben Shapiro said, and I played a number of his clips from his speech at the Heritage foundation on my show on Monday. So for listeners, go back and listen to that program@afr.net from Monday, January 5th. but Ben Shapiro really, I think, encapsulated the thrust of the issue, which is that conservatives need to define conservatism again. And not that it's a new definition, but we need to claim the definition of conservatism so that we don't get off into the mixed bag.

Alex McFarland: Yeah, great point. I was just thinking that as you went there that, you know, it's been said for Christianity that the authority and the inspiration, inerrancy of the Bible has to be reasserted in every generation. And I think conservatism is, you know, we have to help the upcoming generations and maybe even some of the gray hairs. We have to remind them what constitutional conservatism is. you know, back about 1980, my mentor in grad school, Dr. Norm Geisler, he and RC Sproul convened something called the Chicago Council on Biblical Inerrancy. And they got the top scholars of the day together. And I would encourage, you know, maybe some listeners to seek this out, but they there was, you know, a very young John MacArthur and, you know, people like R.C. sproul and J.I. packer and F.F. bruce, some of the great scholars of the day, came together in Chicago back in 19, and they wrote the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy. And it was a statement that, you know, the Bible is God's word. It's been preserved. And, we've got the inspiration, preservation. There was also a term called the perspicuity of scripture, that scripture can be understood. It's not esoteric, it's exoteric. Anyway, here's my point. I think we'd need to do that again. But I think in terms of America, especially for young people in Jena, we do this in our seven summer camps. For 27 years, we've done camps. And we had 1200 teenagers in seven youth camps last summer. Then an end of year Youth rally with 1100 teenagers. Had 604 kids pray to accept Christ. And then all of our youth committed to live for God and country, to be a disciple. And anyway, my point is, I think for increasing numbers of young Americans, and Charlie was doing this, Charlie Kirk was on this track. But maybe now it's for people like yourself and Frank Turek and hopefully me and a lot of others to continue the banner, but we have to teach what America is and what conservatism is and some of the key beliefs, that a minute ago I mentioned, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And I want to share a quote. King. and I bring him up because, have you noticed, Jenna, Dr. King, I'm, not saying I agree with everything he ever said or did, but he did predicate the validity of the civil rights movement on the idea that life is created by God. Life is a sacred gift. And, you know, he would have been anti abortion. I, guarantee it. But Dr. King said this, and I quote, he said, to put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law, not rooted in eternal law and natural law. And see, really, it's been said there are four types of laws. You correct me if I'm wrong on this, Jenna, but there's eternal law, divine law, natural law, and human law. Okay? Eternal law, that's God's plans, the full will of God. And that's only partially known to humans, really. Then there's divine law, which is God's written revelation, the Bible. And then there's natural law, which is the moral light written on every human heart. And then there's human law, rules laid down by man, which may be just or Might be unjust, human law might be beneficial, or it might be detrimental. but human law, many great thinkers, many ethicists have said this, from Augustine to Aquinas to William F. Buckley. Human law is valid when it conforms to the objective standards of God's law. And praise God. And this is great that our 250th anniversary, we're talking about these things. The greatness of America, the X factor for two centuries plus was that our declaration, preamble, Constitution, Bill of Rights, and 50 out of 50 state constitutions for the majority of our country, they did operate in harmony and, in comportment with God's law, didn't they? Up until recently they did.

Jenna Ellis: And this is why it's so important to understand, that human law, those things that we pass through the legislature and all of our law is generated by man, must comport with a moral and eternal authority, because otherwise it's totally subjective to man's whim. And this is the difference between a law that is grounded in and established by, the principles of a natural law and of God himself and of order and authority, versus a secular humanism, which is this idea that our legislatures or king or, you know, whoever is in governmental authority over us, has the power to bend and shape laws according to our will. And a progressive form of government, which is what the progressives, the leftists want, they want to say, well, we are evolving as a society, and so therefore our understanding of morality and ethics and the difference between right and wrong is an evolving, changing standard. Well, that standard would then necessarily be dependent on man instead of dependent on an eternal authority that doesn't change.

True conservatism has always insisted on these four things, Alex says

And a standard that, that defines whether a law is just or unjust, moral, immoral, rational, irrational. And our collective society has sort of forgotten that. and it is unfortunate because as you rightly point out, Alex, it is the. The principle of America's founding was the recognition that our rights come from God, our Creator. And the sole purpose of government is to preserve and protect those rights. And that is an eternal standard. And every human being that has ever existed since Genesis, Genesis 1 has had the very same rights endowed by God, our Creator. Because anthropology, the study of humans has dictated that we are all made in the image of God and therefore have the same inherent dignity and worth. And so we can see how the biblical worldview of law flows coherently and consistently where the secular humanist view is twisted and distorted, and ultimately it ends in chaos, which is kind of what we see right now, when you have a sort of populist view in the right that is borrowing from this mentality that the majority can govern however they prefer. And so this is why the through line of conservatism, and this is what I was talking about Monday, Alex. But the through line that is that true conservatism has always insisted on these four things. Truth exists, objective, moral, discoverable truth. Second, human nature is fallen. Third, liberty requires virtue, and fourth, power must be restrained. The because we understand truth exists and human nature is fallen, then we get to the biblical worldview of understanding that it has to be someone outside of humanity and our fallen state that has to give us the principles of government. Otherwise our law itself will not be just because it comes from a fallen humanity.

Alex McFarland: Jenna, this is so powerful. I've got to pick up on something. List those four precepts again, if you would. Truth exists and truth is noble. List those again, would you?

Jenna Ellis: Yes. So truth exists and it's objective, moral and discoverable. Second, human nature is fallen. Third, liberty requires virtue. And fourth, power must be restrained.

Alex McFarland: Amen. And you know the first two, that truth exists and truth is knowable and discoverable. That's, Aristotle's first principles, or at least part of it. I want to say this, here's a difference, to understand Conservative versus liberal. Woke Marxist. the liberal says humans are inherently good, but they're expendable. And conservatives would say, no, humans are fallen, but valuable to God. See, that's why, you know, the left, they don't like the idea that we are fallen sinners in need of redemption. But we are. And so, and Jen, you know, I've heard so many people, debate me on this at 200 universities in nearly 30 years now. By the way, I'll be on January 29th, I'll be at East Mississippi Community College from 11:30 to 1. Just, they're answering questions, doing open forum Q and A. If you're, East Mississippi Community College, I'll be there. And I've heard so many professors and students in similar contexts, they'll say, well, people are basically good, but at the same time they'll talk about the goodness and the perfectibility of humans. They'll, ah, abort, euthanize, you know, I mean, so they believe. The left believes humans are inherently good, but they're expendable. Life is cheap. Conservatives, on the other hand, say, no, humans are inherently bad. We're fallen. Jeremiah 17. The heart is deceitful and wicked. Who can know it? And so we Admit the fallenness of man. And because of that fallenness and sin, we have the propensity to do evil, to lie, cheat, steal, philander. you know, but we're made in God's image and we're valuable to God.

Alex McFarland: JFK said natural rights come from God

now, January 20th, 1961, JFK was inaugurated. And in his inaugural address, John F. Kennedy said, the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God. And he went on, and Kennedy said, the role of government is not to give you rights, but to guard the rights you've already inherently been given by God, the Creator. And, Jenna, I know you know this, but the philosophy of natural rights that come from the recognition of natural law was emphasized by our founders, you know, including, but not limited to, like Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison, George Mason, Peyton Randolph, Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee. So many of the great founders, Richard Bland, they understood that the laws of man are valid only to the degree that they comport with the laws of God. and that's why Jefferson wrote in the Declaration, appealing to God for the rectitude of our intentions. You know, the revolt against the King and the establishment of a new government. It is not a democracy. It's a republic. And a Judeo Christian representative republic. They knew that they were doing this in the, you know, before the eyes of God. And they could appeal for God's blessing because they were trying to do it based on God's nature and God's principles.

Jenna Ellis: Yes. So well said. And we need to take a break here, Alex McFarland. But he's going to join us again on the flip side to continue this important conversation about, the Bible and the civil government and ultimately preserving this standard of truth and God's authority in government. We'll be right back with more.

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Jenna Ellis: Alex McFarland talks about transgenderism on American Family Radio

 : Welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.

Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And I'm here with my special guest this morning, Alex McFarland, who is the co host of Exploring the Word here on American Family Radio Network. And we're talking about truth in government and a truth in the reality to which we are presented and how our founders recognize, through our Declaration of Independence, that our rights come from God, our Creator. They are pre political, and that necessarily defines and limits the scope of government's authority and civil government and what human beings can require of each other. regardless of what type of system of government, is installed in a given society, whether that is a king and monarch or whether that's a legislature or a parliament or, you know, any sort of system of government, or whether you prefer, you know, populism versus, utter tyranny or, you know, some of those things, we are still confined to the reality of truth, the laws of nature and of nature's God. And so even if you subscribe to, some other form and you wouldn't call yourself necessarily conservative, ultimately I would argue, well, you need to shift that view. Because what is, what is contained in the conservative view is that ultimately our goal is truth. And truth requires that we limit government, that we limit human authority over each other, that a liberty does require virtue, and that the power of the government cannot override the limits that God himself has expressly told us in his specific revelation, but also the limits that he has told us in his general revelation. Because things, Alex, like, for example, the laws of nature and nature's God as applied to marriage and family, those are things that, yes, God has expressly told us, but we can see that in the laws of nature. Even if someone were to reject the Bible as authoritative, well, we can see in the laws of nature that one man and one woman is the only situation, period, that can create a child. And so we can see through the laws of nature that the legislative arm of the definitions of marriage and family are not subject to the bending in the will of whatever our legislature or the immorality of our society might prefer. And this is where we have to get back as Christians to arguing for a moral, objective truth, rather than being party populists and saying, well, whatever is advanced under the banner of R, we're for, and whatever is under the banner of D, we're against. We don't determine and arbitrate truth based on party politics. We do it based on the objective moral truth of the laws of nature and of nature's God.

Alex McFarland: Well said. Well said. You know, George Mason, who was, George Mason, wrote the Virginia Declaration of Rights, the Virginia Bill of Rights. George Mason wrote the constitution for the state of Virginia, and he was a real natural law advocate for the rights of the colonists. But he said this, and I quote, the laws of nature are the laws of God, whose authority can be superseded by no power on earth. And Jefferson said similar things. And so that's why, like, when it comes to, you know, nature shows us, I mean, procreation requires a male and a female, you know. Jenna, I've, The transgender issue seems to have cooled off for a moment. But, a couple of years ago, I was speaking at several different colleges and I was including the University of Kentucky Medical School at Louisville, and I had, you know, med students just almost shouting at me about the rights of transgender. but I said, look, like Bruce Jenner, AKA Caitlyn Jenner, there is no way in the world that he will ever get ovarian cancer. I mean, if a male who identifies as female, that does not objectively make it so. and so transgenderism is against. Yes, it's ungodly. And by the way, I think the transgender movement is utterly satanic. Because, look, I mean, it's one thing to shake your fist and say, God, you can't tell me how to behave, but transgenderism is essentially saying, God, you don't even have the right to define what I am. I. I am the locus of reality and truth. I. I will define who and what I am. And that militant autonomy is really satanic. But,

Carl Becker wrote a textbook on the political philosophies of the founders

Hey, Jenna, I've got to ask you this. have you ever heard of, a, ah, professor at Cornell who was in his day, one of the experts on the philosophies of the founders. Carl Becker, who was a, political science professor at Cornell. Carl Becker, does that name ring a bell?

Jenna Ellis: Not currently, no.

Alex McFarland: he, And he, I mean, he's been dead 60 years, but he wrote a textbook on the political philosophies of the founders. And he basically said this. Carl, Becker, said, quote, the natural rights philosophy was essentially at one with the Christian faith, end of quote. Let me go on a little bit because he wrote, and his book on the Declaration of Independence is still in print. He also wrote, I need to read it. Yeah, it's great. The Heavenly City, which was about, the founders, that they believe, like Reagan said, that we are a city on a hill, you know, quoting the Sermon on the Mount, America, a city on a hill, that our light could and should be seen by all. But anyway, Carl Becker was writing rather extensively on, Thomas Paine's the Age of Reason. Now a lot of people think that the Age of Reason is like this atheistic manifesto and a lot of secularists have co opted it. But here's what Carl Becker said, that Thomas Paine relied more on Christian assumptions than. People realize that, from the 13th to the 18th century, the concepts that really shaped America were these, and this is in his day, one of the top, most respected political people in America. But he said the concepts that drove the founders were these. God, sin, grace, salvation, heaven and the like. And by the 18th and 19th centuries, what changed that, said Becker, was evolution, progress, relativity and function. now what am I saying here? We migrated from God, truth, accountability to not only natural law, but written revelation. Ah. And we moved from sin, the fall, salvation and personal accountability to evolution, progressivism, relativity. That means that we all make our own truth. And listeners might be thinking, what does this have to do with me, the 21st century? And you know, Alex is quoting people from, you know, 50 to 200 years ago. for one thing, truth doesn't have an expiration date. Jenna, I've read the Bible cover to cover countless times. Nowhere in the Bible does it say best if used by, you know, truth doesn't have an expiration date. And it's like this. you know, the Wright brothers discovered flight by creating an airfoil. They looked at the wing of a bird, they prayed about it. By the way, if you ever come to my home state of North Carolina and go to the Wright Brothers Museum, unless it's been changed, I hope it hasn't. But you'll see in some of the glass cases down at Kitty Hawk their Bibles. And there was a journal and it said, you know, Sunday, Such and such, 1903, conditions are perfect, but it is the Lord's day and we do not fly the glider on Sundays.

Alex McFarland: Now here's my point. They discovered they prayed about it. They emulated the wing of a bird because the Wright brothers said God made the birds and the bird's wings somehow splits the air, creates lift. And that's how they modeled their airplane wing. And airplane wings are, made that way to this day. And here's my point. Just as within the created world there are properties, well it's that way. In the spiritual, intellectual and philosophical worlds following objective moral truth, built the greatest nation in world history, America, if we come back to it, because reality doesn't change, the nature of God doesn't change. Malachi 3: I, the Lord change, not Hebrews 13. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Jenna I believe if our nation turns back to truth, turns back to God, and we say, lord, we repent. We've wandered, but we're coming back. Lord, cleanse us, fill us, use us, please bless us. America can be great again. But it's not the stock market. It's not any of the things that so many people assume. It's truth and God. Proverbs 14, 14:34. Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people. you know, reality hasn't changed. We were great because we were godly. If we become, moral and godly again, to your point that liberty requires virtue, we, can be great again. But it will only be the degree to which we follow truth and the God from whom truth emanates.

Jenna Ellis: Amen. And amen. So well said.

Alex: Jordan Peterson interviewed John Lennox about God and science

And you know, as you were speaking, Alex, it reminded me of an interview that I saw with Jordan. Peterson was interviewing John Lennox, who is one of the foremost apologists. And I just love his, all of his works and for listeners, if you haven't, you know, heard of John Lennox, you know, I highly commend, his works. And he was actually a, a contemporary, or is still, I mean he's still, he's old enough to have listened, ah, to C.S. lewis when C.S. lewis was still alive, which is incredible. And he actually references this in the interview with Jordan Peterson. But they have this kind of wide ranging conversation about God and how truth is discoverable and, and basically this idea that and they start out the conversation where Jordan Peterson says, you know, it took me a while to kind of see how science and sort of this intellectual study of reality then comported with religion or theology in the study of God and how those pieces fit together. And he was saying, you know, as he's continued on in his studies, they actually fit together very well. And John Lennox kind of brilliantly says, you know, my experience was just so different. Where I never saw those things as opposed. I always saw, the study of science as actually interdependent with the study of theology and the necessity of truly understanding the reality to which we're presented being predicated on a knowledge of our Creator and of why we're here and answering kind of some of these theological and existential questions before we can even start to begin to interpret, what we would classify as the field of science. And it's just this amazing interview and it's about an hour and a half long. I highly commend it, to everyone listening to go and listen, but, but as they get into to this, it's really fascinating to see John Lennox sort of methodically, go through a lot of evidences of, for the laws of nature and of nature's God and what we can actually discover about ourselves and human beings based on the environment or the reality to which we're presented. Because he's saying, you know, if you have a, an environment that you study, then you can determine what type of creature would thrive in that environment based on that environment. Likewise, if you study the creature, you can also tell what type of environment, he should belong into. And based on that you can see how a lot of these, the study of reality is how God fine tuned our universe to be the best environment for us to come to know him and for us to thrive. And all of this to say it buttresses, very perfectly with our understanding of government because if our environment is so fine tuned for us not only to thrive, but to then know and discover our Creator and truth, any system of government must necessarily not just not prohibit or infringe upon that discovery, but actually enable and support the discoveries of truth. And I think it's a really excellent commentary. And they don't really get into law and government as much as, you know, I would have loved them to. But, But I think that when you view it in light of what we already understand, government and of the principles of conservatism in the biblical worldview, this whole big idea that the reality to which we are presented screams out that there is truth, there is purpose for man, we can understand who we are in light of our relationship with our Creator, then necessarily a government system that is legitimate is downstream from that and is also likewise the philosophy of policy is, is interdependent on understanding that reality. And I think it's just, it's amazing to put all of these pieces together.

Alex McFarland: You know, Jenna, brilliant. You mentioned John Lennox about 10 years ago. He and I did an event for youth in Ohio, and it was just one of the great honors, like you say, he heard Lewis in person. And, But, it's funny. Stephen Hawking, the late atheistic physicist Stephen Hawking said, religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark. To which Lennox replied, atheism is a fairy story for people afraid of the light. And have you heard of the book A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking?

Jenna Ellis: Yes.

Alex McFarland: Okay. I read the first edition when it came out, several years ago, actually, 1988. I'm, showing my age here, and what's interesting about how, folks, you need to understand that science and scientists are not as blissfully unbiased as you might assume, or as they would want you to assume. But in the original edition of A Brief History of Time, which I read when it came out, Hawking, allowed for God. You know, he said, there's the singularity and the Big Bang. But what was prior to the singularity? you know, most people would say God, you know, God initiated the Big Bang. But then shortly before he died, there was several updates, but he said, no, the universe was not created by God. The universe created itself. And even many m. Secularists said, you know, come on, Hawking, you're better than that. But at the time Stephen Hawking died, atheism was very chic and hip and popular, and, you know, it sounds. Sounds pretty, And I've debated. I don't know, I've interviewed 32 of, you know, Hitchens, who I debated and interviewed, actually had Christopher Hitchens on AFR before he died. Jenna. even Christopher Hitchens, I had him on, I think it was in either 09 or 2010, on AFR, probably spring of 2010. And I said, listen, folks, because this, Baptist preacher is going to agree with an atheist for the next few minutes. And what it was was that Christopher Hitchens said, look, there are two forces. There's communism in Sharia. And as reticent as he was to admit it, the one thing that could sort of inoculate a culture against communism, m. Or Sharia was Christianity. M. And he said, one of the best. And Hitchens and I emailed up until two days before he died in 2012, I don't know if he ever really gave his life to Christ. It's very doubtful. I wish he did. But he said. And he was really just speaking as a pragmatist, but he said we should get people to become Christian, because if they're Christian, they won't become atheistic communists or Islamic Sharia advocates. And so here's the thing, and even Richard Dawkins in Britain is beginning to admit this, that, in the vacuum created by the absence of Christianity, you don't just have this tabula rasa, this blank slate. No, when Christianity is absent, something will rush in to fill that void, and it's either Marxism and communism and totalitarianism, or it's Sharia. and so just even pragmatically, Richard Dawkins, who certainly is no friend of the gospel, but he said he wants to live in a Christian culture. And so isn't it interesting that the presence of God's word and God's people benefits even those that don't believe in God or the gospel?

Jenna Ellis: Yeah, it's just, it's so amazing how the biblical worldview is always consistent with reality. And the more that we learn about God and the things of truth, the more we can understand and not only defend, but explain even to ourselves and, and strengthen our resolve and belief, to be a rational faith, that the truth is the truth. And and so when we have conversations kind of, you know, to, to bring this full circle when we have conversations about, you know, the, the headlines of the day and, and are frustrated, you know, maybe with different, policy decisions or, or even thinking through, like, how should I understand, should I support this particular policy? How should I understand this headline? All of these things. If you have a comprehensive foundation of a worldview first that is built on truth and understand then where, science fits into that, where, the government fits into that, in policy and all of these different subject matter that are built in and rooted in truth, then it becomes a lot easier to process through a lot of what's happening in our culture because we can rightly point out the measurable difference between what's true and what is not true and those distinct categories. Which goes back to what we were saying at the very beginning, Alex, that definitions matter and that principles matter and that we have to in 2026. I firmly believe that our resolve as Christian conservatives needs to be a clarifying moment to redefine what it actually means to be a Christian conservative in America today. So we're almost out of time, but just some closing thoughts on that from you, Alex, and thanks so much for joining today.

Alex McFarland: Oh, well, thank you for having me.

Alex says every Christian has an obligation to serve God and country

you know, if I could, mention that, it's been my joy to travel and preach, all over the country. And, obviously job one is to Tell people how to be saved and proclaim the gospel. But Jenna, I believe that every Christian, every born again believer can be used by God to contribute things that count for eternity. First Corinthians 15:58 says that our labor in the Lord is not in vain. And I guess I would love to say to everybody listening, especially young people, but every dad, every mom, every man and woman, certainly every volunteer who helps with Sunday school youth ministry, every pastor, your life carries far more potential for impact than you may realize. folks, every one of us, every one of us, we have an obligation for God and country. Augustine, one of the smartest mortals that ever lived. He lived 354-430 A.D. augustine said, until we are in the city of God, we have an obligation to the city of man. Okay, so we are disciples and we are citizens. We are to pray, we are to intercede, we are to be a witness. We are to volunteer and find our spiritual gift and serve. And we are to, be stewards of our own growth. Jenna, I just believe that every Christian should be a lifelong learner. And you know, John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, said, those who read lead. So, attend to the stewardship of the mind, be a learner, and then understand for God and country every day. We are Christ ambassadors and we are, yeah, we are children of the light, but we are opponents of the darkness. And so for God and country, we have to take a stand, even if it's sometimes out of our comfort zone. Agreed.

Jenna Ellis: Amen. And amen. We have to continue on that path. Alex, thanks so much for joining and as always, you can reach me and my team. Jenna, afr.net have a great weekend. PreBorn's whole mission is to rescue babies from abortion and lead their families to Christ. Last year, PreBorn's network of clinics saw 8,900 mothers come to Christ. Please join us in this life saving mission. To donate, go to preborn.com afr.